Ordnance - another idea...

[horizon]

..based on FFG's Rogue Trader.

rough and all

Ordnance Pool
Per strength point of launch bay a ship holds 3 squadrons.
*** Thus a Dictator with 4 launch bays holds 3x4 = 12 squadrons.

Squadrons are:
* Fighters
* Bombers
* Assault boats
(fluffwise support craft and ground attack should be added)

Usually a carrier has 1 of each type per bay.
But a player can make another selection before the game:

A Devestation could have either (12 squadrons):
i. 4 fighters, 4 bombers, 4 assault boats
ii 2 fighters, 8 bombers, 2 assault boats
etc

Ordnance Launch
Reload Ordnance per usual. Ship may launch up to launch bay capacity in any squadron formation desired.

Fighters
Intercepting enemy ordnance

*** CAP, per usual. but added: fighters on cap can intercept enemy ordnance in a 10cm diameter extending from the ship under cap.

*** Turret suppression: ON THE FLY:
negate enemy turret being added to armour value when bombers attack


*** Escorting Bombers

Fighters engaging enemy:
-> When two opposing ordnance waves engage the following happens.

A D6 is being rolled. A 4+ is needed to destroy opposing ordnance.

Add the following modifiers:
+1 for every fighter squadron in the wave
+1 for every resilient squadron in the wave
+1 for outnumbering the opponents wave
{{{+1 race modifier (eg Eldar)}}}???

Roll the D6 and add the modifiers.
Example:
3 fighters engage 1 fighter and 3 bombers
3 fighters: D6 roll = 4, add +3 (fighters), result is 7.
1 f+3 b D6 roll = 3, add +2 (1f + outnumber), result is 5.

For every number of success an enemy squadron marker is being removed:
In the example this would mean :
(7-4)=3 squadrons killed from the bomber wing (1 bomber remains)
(5-4)=1 squadron is killed from the figher wing (2 fighters remain)

Fighters may only engage once per ordnance phase but may keep moving (if cm remain) after an engagement.

Bombers THIS IS REALLY ON THE FLY:::
to be added

Bombers attack enemy capital ships.

When a bombersquadron (part of wave or not) touches an enemy base it attacks.

Roll a D6 versus enemy armour.
Add +1 for every marker after the first

Compare score vs armour + turrets, that's the number of hits inflicted.
Example:
4 bombers attack 5+ armour.
Roll D6, add +3 for extra markers.
Result: 5+3 = 8

8 score minus 7 armour+turrets = 1 hit.


Assault boats
to be added


death ordnance
If ordnance is killed due enemy turret fire or through enemy ordnance the squadron is on the brink of destruction. Killed off can mean a lot.

Roll a D6 for every marker removed. On a 4+ they stay in the game and can be launched again.
perhaps death is just death?

This means wise use of ordnance and selection.




Turrets
Shoot at enemy turrets, 4+ per usual.

[Phthisis]

Wow, youre serious about nerfing bombers!

At first glance, the bomber rules make it really really hard to damage T2 and almost impossible vs T3 and completely impossible any higher.  Of course, bombers in squadrons of 8 would be pretty powerful, but there's only 2 ships that can do that.  Almost every carrier has 4 bays, and waves of bombers would be pretty worthless.

The fighter interactions may have promise.  Its a bit complicated, but much less random than just making fighters resilient.

As usual, I'm not interested in increasing the amount of record keeping in BFG, SO I dont want to keep track of which squadrons survive or die and how many of each I have left.

[fracas]

i like the idea of pregame purchase of attack crafts

ac vs ac should be a dice off, with modifiers
say: -3 for assault boats, -2 for bombers, -1 for hybrids

bombers should just go with D6 attacks per surviving bombers

[horizon]

On bombers, perhaps yeah. But add fighters and turrets are negated.
And 1 hit in the example means 1 point of damage.

Thus less rolling (luck) then now (first determing how many attack dice, then rolling vs armour).

Maybe it should be +1 per bomber marker, not only after the first?


Fighters complicated, heh, still less modifiers then in the RPG.

Record keeping? Hardly present in BFG and I don't think this is a lot.

Count launch bays in fleet. Do them times three. Create pool.
End of ordnance phase roll D6 per destroyed marker. (Just put them on side of table).

Pretty quick resolved. AC is no longer a throw away weapon.

[Thinking Stone]

Hello everyone.
@horizon: I like this idea of AC combat resolution. I've been thinking that wave-versus-wave combat is much more 'in tune' with BFG (although I still like the resilience save. Perhaps it could be kept for 'legendary' squadrons/crew skill upgrade? An option anyway).

Makes ordnance choice very tricky at the start of the game but gives lots of options for different play styles. It does change the focus slightly, though, since AC are currently a 'weapon system' that doesn't require knowledge of whether it 'lives or dies': although I'm not afraid of book-keeping, the Reload Ordnance doubles roll did represent the same sort of thing. Perhaps that command check could be incorporated into the ordnance survival mechanism, representing the key role of the mothership's leadership and that of the squadron. Probably shouldn't have individual squadron leadership, but the idea is there.... Also, what do you have in mind for ground support? It would be simpler to keep it the same (e.g. 1 assault point, etc.).

Would each ship only take care of its 'own' ordnance or can it launch as many as it likes from the pool?

The bomber mechanism might just be more easily represented with the current rules, unless they had some kind of help (e.g. rolling 2D6 somewhere?). The current rules do work quite well and the Rogue Trader rule is better suited to larger armour values (like those in BFG Advanced we discussed, using 2D6 values, i.e. 2-12 armour). Interesting, nonetheless: if we could get the numbers just right I think it would work better than the current rules (faster and less complicated).

fracas' idea about different combat modifiers is interesting also. Perhaps it would be better to give fighters a bonus +3 and give bombers no modifier, assault boats +1 and hybrids +2? As a thought.

It would be interesting if assault boats caused critical hits based the Rouge Trader bomber mechanism, with + modifiers on the chart... he he he.

[fracas]

yeah positive modifiers maybe easier than negative ones

[Thinking Stone]

Whoa, Fracas, we must be in a similar timezone or something! That's the fastest reply I think I've ever had here! Not to take the focus off of the topic in question (serious look). 

[horizon]

Hi, just these for now

Perhaps that command check could be incorporated into the ordnance survival mechanism, representing the key role of the mothership's leadership and that of the squadron. Probably shouldn't have individual squadron leadership, but the idea is there.... Also, what do you have in mind for ground support? It would be simpler to keep it the same (e.g. 1 assault point, etc.).

Adding the Ld to the attack run is kind of how the Rogue Trader RPG works (adding command value d100... ). But this may get to difficult to track in a large battle with multiple waves in BFG (RT focusses on a few vessels, with even less carriers, 1 vs1 is not unusual).


Ground Support = like the aeronautica flyers, they are in the hangar too. But don't add in BFG so I just mentioned it.

Would each ship only take care of its 'own' ordnance or can it launch as many as it likes from the pool?

In small games it is possible, but again larger games it gets tricky. I think this is a point where we can go little abstract and have a fleet pool.
But if it is per carrier people prefer I am not against it.


Fracas, TS,
how would your engagement work in a wave vs wave with the modifiers? Does two fighter markers generate two times 3+ = 6+?

In my 'idea' it is +1 per fighter marker in wave. So 4 fighters is +4.
I added resilient as a +1 as well.

If the save roll is added the +1 should be dropped for them. No double bonus. Or resilient craft adds -1 to the opponents roll? That would be neat. Less chance to be destroyed.


Assault boats:
dunno yet. I think to keep the current mechanic (faq2010).



ps in Rogue Trader attack craft can only stay in game for x amount of turns!


ii
In RT attack craft have ratings (eg Fury +10, Starhawk 0, Darkstar +15, etc), values added to the roles. But a complete chart for BFG? Nah... perhaps another setting?

[Thinking Stone]

Hello everyone,
Maybe the Ld/attack run bit can be done with the leadership of the nearest carrier/ship? This is sensible for large ships like the Emperor with its additional sensors/comms gear but maybe not for smaller carriers like the Dictator. You could just put dice next to the squadrons to get the Ld, though, or maybe every army has a characteristic Ld for its squadrons (that way we don't need a specific bonus per race). I do like the addition of the Ld modifier though whether as a straight modifier or not is a tricky question. In most AC fights, the numbers of AC would be small enough that this modifier is not overshadowed.

I'm still not sure what should be done for 'destruction' of attack craft, since at the moment, there can be a 'driven off' and a 'destroyed' result in BFG. Maybe they take a Ld test after combat and if failed the squadron is unusable for the rest of the game? That would be quick (if done per wave) and perhaps not too bad for gameplay either: represents the same loss of craft and expendable weapons that doubles Reload Ordnance results used to.

If there was a bonus per marker (+3 for fighters, +1 for ABs, +2 for hybrids, +0 for bombers, +70 for crack Rogue Traders , I would probably say do it per marker (what do you think, Fracas?). Of course, if you had negative modifiers (e.g. -3 for bombers etc.) it would be a big penalty for bomber squadrons with fighters (i.e. one bomber sucks so much that the 3 fighters can't even overcome its badness! Put colloquially . I think that Fracas' original idea was for a bonus/penalty to the whole wave but if it is a positive bonus based on type I think that it would work per marker. Not sure about resilience either—I quite like it as a way to represent 'legendary' squadrons (if you wanted to, probably as a campaign upgrade) but if we used the Ld system then elite squadrons would just have a better Ld. -1 to the opponent is a good idea too, but I think that the Ld test is the best way to depict 'utter' destruction (not to be confused with 'udder' destruction .

In other games, AC squadrons can only stay for a limited number of turns, too, but other than reducing Ld by 1 for every turn out there, I'm not sure if BFG would really benefit from this (in the background, especially after the various global campaigns, AC are viewed as long range quite often).

For Assault Boats: I agree to keep the same mechanism with a (small) change (for the better, I think): roll 2D6 and choose which one counts. You have probably seen me suggest this, especially in the 'Streamlining BFG' thread, but I do think that this is very reasonable in terms of gameplay and background. Terminators and the like will require due compensation, of course.

Are you thinking about anything special for turrets? Would they interact like a fighter squadron? Or are the existing rules sufficient?

Complete chart for BFG would be very good for BFG: Advanced. Am I the only one who still likes BFG: Advanced? I do like it a lot, if that's compensation.... I was thinking that it would be nice to have a few 'specialist BFG games' to complement the existing (still very cool) game. Specifically, I was ruminating on BFG: Advanced as well as a larger scale BFG type of game that focused on capital ship squadrons (not sure about escorts' roles). This larger scale game would focus on the battles often described in the background. Normal BFG would have the roll of being the normal sized fleet engagement, not particularly close up (like Rogue Trader or BFG: Advanced) and not enormous (BFG: large scale).

PS: I forgot to ask if there were any useful ideas from Aeronautica Imperialis that could be incorporated?

[Thinking Stone]

Hello everyone,
I've thought about these proposed rules in great detail and done some road(space)-testing; overall, I'm quite happy with the system that I'm posting here. If you have any advice, please post it: although I am pleased with the balance of the system, there is always room for improvement. If you would like justification of some ideas, I'll put it in another post, but in short I think this system isn't too complicated for BFG and provides enough complexity to allow other game mechanisms to interact with the system easily. So, without further ado:

Unless stated here, all other rules for attack craft apply (e.g. turrets, torpedo interactions, bombing runs, etc.).

One exception: when an assault boat squadron makes its attack run against a capital ship and is successful, roll 2D6 and choose whichever result is desired. A caveat applies though, to keep the system balanced with the same failure rate as the original system: if a double is rolled, the attack run fails (exactly as if a 1 is rolled in the rulebook system). This allows assault boat crews to 'prioritise' their targets and still retains the fact that you don't always breach where you want to! Assault boats against escorts remain unchanged (e.g. destroy escorts on a 4+ in FAQ2010, if I recall correctly).

Carriers provide 3 attack craft markers per launch bay they carry. These markers may be of any type allowed for the carrier (e.g. bombers and fighters for Imperial Dictators) but you must choose their type before the game begins and this cannot be changed during the engagement. All of the attack craft markers in the fleet are 'pooled' together and may be launched from any carrier, subject to the usual fleet limits on ordnance.

Attack craft waves have a leadership value; this is the same as their launching ship (since it is assumed that the launching ship will be co-ordinating their operations).

To resolve the interaction between two different attack craft waves, each player rolls a D6 and adds:
 - the wave's leadership
 - +3 for every fighter in the wave NOT sacrificing itself
 - +2 for every fighter-hybrid in the wave NOT sacrificing itself
 - -2 for each bomber present in the wave
 - -1 for each assault boat/non-fighter hybrid
 - +6 for every figher/fighter-hybrid sacrificing itself*

The wave with the lower score removes markers equal to the difference in scores.
* Instead of providing the usual bonus, fighters and figher-hybrids may 'sacrifice' themselves to provide a larger bonus to the wave score. They are removed immediately (that is, they do not count towards the number of markers that must be removed from the wave for losing). This represents the squadrons in question using progidous amounts of fuel and ammunition to protect their waves.

After resolving the battle, take a leadership check for all markers removed from the wave: if passed, the markers are returned to the fleet pool (they have enough craft and consumables left to return to the field when resupplied); if failed, the markers are removed from the game (representing craft/pilot destruction, the carrier running out of fuel or ammunition for resupply, reparable damage to craft that cannot be fixed in the short term, etc.).

If markers are removed due to turret fire or gunnery, or from any other means (e.g. moving through blast markers), this test is taken; if the entire wave is destroyed, the test is taken for the wave at one time.

When an attack craft wave interacts with torpedoes, they are exempt from the leadership test as detailed above, but must still be returned to the pool after the interaction.

Thinking Stone

[AndrewChristlieb]

Ordnance Pool
Per strength point of launch bay a ship holds 3 squadrons.
*** Thus a Dictator with 4 launch bays holds 3x4 = 12 squadrons.

Squadrons are:
* Fighters
* Bombers
* Assault boats
(fluffwise support craft and ground attack should be added)

Usually a carrier has 1 of each type per bay.
But a player can make another selection before the game:

A Devestation could have either (12 squadrons):
i. 4 fighters, 4 bombers, 4 assault boats
ii 2 fighters, 8 bombers, 2 assault boats
etc

Ordnance Launch
Reload Ordnance per usual. Ship may launch up to launch bay capacity in any squadron formation desired.

ok I like this, lets just address a few issues.
Space hulks and Tyranids get extra squadrons

Ships may NOT launch attack craft they are not equiped to handle

Ordnance Pool

For each point of launch bay strength a ship has it may select up to 3 squadrons from the attack craft available to it as listed in their respective fleet lists (e.g. bombers and fighters for Imperial Dictators) but you must choose their type before the game begins and this cannot be changed during the engagement. All of the attack craft markers in the fleet are 'pooled' together and may be launched from any carrier, subject to the usual fleet limits on ordnance. Tyranids and Space Hulks may select up to 4 squadrons.

Carriers may as an upgrade chose to carry squadrons of atmospheric and ground support craft instead of space craft for no charge.  These vessels may not be used outside of a planets low orbit table, but may be launched when in low orbit and act as fighter/bombers (for simplicity) the carrier will also receive +1 assault point for every 2 atmospheric attack craft waves rounded down (in addition to any they normally receive).

Example: A Dictator has 12 squadrons of attack craft at its disposal and can choose any mixture of fighters and bombers, for no extra charge any of these squadrons may be exchanged for atmospheric craft on a 1 for 1 basis.

Reloading Ordnance

Reload Ordnance per usual. Ship may launch up to launch bay capacity in any squadron formation desired. A ship that has paid extra to carry special ordnance (shark assault boats, Torpedo bombers, mines etc...) must follow all rules for these ordnance types and no other ship may launch those types unless they have also paid the upgrade price. This means that if you have paid for one ship to have mines it cannot launch any ordnance other than mines, likewise no other ship may launch mines unless it also has the upgrade.

Fighters engaging enemy:
-> When two opposing ordnance waves engage the following happens.

A D6 is being rolled. A 4+ is needed to destroy opposing ordnance.

Add the following modifiers:
+1 for every fighter squadron in the wave
+1 for every resilient squadron in the wave
+1 for outnumbering the opponents wave
{{{+1 race modifier (eg Eldar)}}}???

Roll the D6 and add the modifiers.
Example:
3 fighters engage 1 fighter and 3 bombers
3 fighters: D6 roll = 4, add +3 (fighters), result is 7.
1 f+3 b D6 roll = 3, add +2 (1f + outnumber), result is 5.

For every number of success an enemy squadron marker is being removed:
In the example this would mean :
(7-4)=3 squadrons killed from the bomber wing (1 bomber remains)
(5-4)=1 squadron is killed from the figher wing (2 fighters remain)

Fighters may only engage once per ordnance phase but may keep moving (if cm remain) after an engagement.

This is ok no other modifiers required, just a ruling for fighter bombers and equivelents. Easy out= FB (and EQ) are equal to 1/2 fighter rounded down. so [1 thunderhawk = 0 fighters and 1 assault boat] [2 thunderhawk = 1 fighter (1/2+1/2=1) and 1 assault boat] etc...

retain the requirement that the movement stops when you encounter a wave, its just simpler that way

Racial modifiers are resiliant craft... nothing requied there either. so it should look something like

Fighters VS Attack Craft

When a fighter or wave containing fighters encounters any other attack craft each marker/wave rolls 1D6 and adds the following modifiers:

+1 for every fighter squadron in the wave (Fighter Bombers and equivelents count as 1/2 fighter rounded down)
+1 for every resilient squadron in the wave
+1 for outnumbering the opponents wave

Example: 2 Thunderhawks engage 2 Fighters and 2 Bombers
Th rolls a 3 and adds +1 for fighter (1/2+1/2) and +2 for resilient for a total of 6
2fighters/ 2bombers rool a 4 and add +2 for fighters and +1 for outnumbering for a total of 6

For each number above the number of enemy squadron markers remove one enemy squadron.
In the example this would mean :
(6-2)=4 squadrons killed from the Thunderhawks (both destroyed)
(6-4)=2 squadrons killed from the figher/bomber wing (2 bombers remain)

All craft must finish their movement at the end of the attack(even if they still have movement remaining).

Fighters VS Torpedoes

When a Fighter /Fighter bomber or equalivent comes into contact with a torpedo salvo roll 1D6 for each Fighter and remove this many torpedoes and the attack craft marker.

*** CAP, per usual. but added: fighters on cap can intercept enemy ordnance in a 10cm diameter extending from the ship under cap.

*** Turret suppression: ON THE FLY:
negate enemy turret being added to armour value when bombers attack


*** Escorting Bombers

ok leave cap alone theres no reason for the fighters to get 2 movements during their turn (one for staying in base contact with the ship they are protecting and another 10cm during the ordnance phase)

turret suppression and escorting.... next section I believe

Bombers THIS IS REALLY ON THE FLY:::
to be added

Bombers attack enemy capital ships.

When a bombersquadron (part of wave or not) touches an enemy base it attacks.

Roll a D6 versus enemy armour.
Add +1 for every marker after the first

Compare score vs armour + turrets, that's the number of hits inflicted.
Example:
4 bombers attack 5+ armour.
Roll D6, add +3 for extra markers.
Result: 5+3 = 8

8 score minus 7 armour+turrets = 1 hit.

ok... on a roll of 1,2,3,4 you do nothing, if you take 2 fighters and 2bombers the result is exactly the same, this is a bust anyway you look at it as turret suppression does nothing until you get to 3+bombers after your fighters have negated turrets.

Bombers VS Ships

When a bomber comes into contact with an enemy ships base roll 1D6 (for each bomber if in a wave) take the highest number rolled and add the following modifiers:

Each bomber squadron after the first +1
Each fighter squadron +1 (Each fighter in a wave of bombers attacking a ship will add +1 whether they are shot down or not. The maximum gained in this way cannot exceed the number of turrets on the enemy ship itself.)
Each assault boat squadron +1
Each turret -1 (Turrets that are gained due to massed turrets or fleet defense turrets do not count to this total)

Each number above the combined lowest armor value of the ship and its turrets causes one point of damage to the ship.

Example: 4 Bombers attack a Devastation
Devastations lowest armor (5) plus turrets (3) gives it a defense of 8
4 bombers roll a 6,4,2,1 taking the 6 as the highest they add +3 for the 3 squads after the first = 9
9 (bombers score) - 8 (armor+turrets) = 1 hit point of damage

Assault boats
to be added

lets add something!

Assault Boats VS Ships

When an assault boat comes into contact with an enemy ships base roll 1D6 (for each assault boat if in a wave)  take the highest number rolled and add the following modifiers:

Each Assault Boat squadron after the first +1
Each fighter squadron +1 (Each fighter in a wave of Assault Boats attacking a ship will add +1 whether they are shot down or not. The maximum gained in this way cannot exceed the number of turrets on the enemy ship itself.)
Each bomber squadron +1
Each turret -1 (Turrets that are gained due to massed turrets or fleet defense turrets do not count to this total)

Each number above the combined lowest armor value of the ship and its turrets causes one point of damage to the ship.

Example: 4 Assualt Boats attack a Devastation
Devastations lowest armor (5) plus turrets (3) gives it a defense of 8
4 Assualt Boats roll a 6,4,2,1 taking the 6 as the highest they add +3 for the 3 squads after the first = 9
9 (Assualt Boats score) - 8 (armor+turrets) = 1 hit and run attack
 
Turret Suppression

For each fighter in a wave, of bombers or assault boats, attacking a ship negates one turret when determining the number of hits (or hit and run attacks) inflected.

Example: 2 Fighters and 2 Bombers attack a Devastation
Devastations lowest armor (5) plus turrets (3) gives it a defense of 8, but it must subtract 2 because of the fighters suppressing 2 of their turrets for a total of 6
2 bombers roll a 6,1 taking the 6 as the highest they add +3 for the 3 squads after the first = 9
9 (bombers score) - 6 (armor+turrets-fighters) = 3 hit points of damage

Combined Waves

Fighters assault boats and bombers may all be combined in a squadron. When a combined wave comes into contact with an enemy ships base roll 1D6 (for each bomber)  take the highest number rolled then add the following modifiers to each:

Each Assault Boat squadron after the first +1
Each fighter squadron +1 (Each fighter in a wave of Assault Boats attacking a ship will add +1 whether they are shot down or not. The maximum gained in this way cannot exceed the number of turrets on the enemy ship itself.)
Each bomber squadron +1
Each turret -1 (Turrets that are gained due to massed turrets or fleet defense turrets do not count to this total)

Each number above the combined lowest armor value of the ship and its turrets causes one point of damage to the ship.

Example: 2 fighters 1 bomber and 1 Assualt Boat attack a Devastation
Devastations lowest armor (5) plus turrets (3) gives it a defense of 8, but it must subtract 2 because of the fighters suppressing 2 of their turrets for a total of 6
1 bomber rolls a 5 taking the 5 as the highest they add +3 for the 3 squads after the first = 8
8 (bombers score) - 6 (armor+turrets-fighters) = 2 hit points of damage
Any assault boast are able to take advantage of the confusion and perform an automatic Hit and run attack.

Fighter Bombers

When a Fighter bomber (or equivelent) comes into contact with an enemy ships base determine how many will be ATTACKING the ship and how many will be SUPPRESSING turrets roll 1D6 (for every 2 Fighter bombers if in a wave whether they are attacking or suppressing rounding up) take the highest number rolled and add the following modifiers:

Each fighter bomber squadron ATTACKING after the first +1
Each fighter bomber squadron SUPPRESSING +1 (Each fighter in a wave of bombers attacking a ship will add +1 whether they are shot down or not. The maximum gained in this way cannot exceed the number of turrets on the enemy ship itself.)
Each assault boat squadron +1
Each turret -1 (Turrets that are gained due to massed turrets or fleet defense turrets do not count to this total)

Each number above the combined lowest armor value of the ship and its turrets causes one point of damage to the ship.

Example: 4 Fighter Bombers attack a Devastation 2 fighter bombers are suppressing and 2 are attacking
Devastations lowest armor (5) plus turrets (3) gives it a defense of 8, but it must subtract 2 because of the fighter bombers suppressing 2 of their turrets for a total of 6
4 fighter bombers roll a 4 and a 2 taking the 4 as the highest they add +3 for the 3 squads after the first = 7
7 (fighter bombers score) - 6 (armor+turrets-fighter bombers) = 1 hit point of damage

For thunderhawk squadrons it would look like this:

Example: 4 Thunderhawks attack a Devastation 2 Thunderhawks are suppressing and 2 are attacking
Devastations lowest armor (5) plus turrets (3) gives it a defense of 8, but it must subtract 2 because of the Thunderhawks suppressing 2 of their turrets for a total of 6
4 thunderhawks roll a 4 and a 2 taking the 4 as the highest they add +3 for the 3 squads after the first = 7
7 (Thunderhawks score) - 6 (armor+turrets-Thunderhawks) = 1 hit and run attack

death ordnance
If ordnance is killed due enemy turret fire or through enemy ordnance the squadron is on the brink of destruction. Killed off can mean a lot.

Roll a D6 for every marker removed. On a 4+ they stay in the game and can be launched again.
perhaps death is just death?

This means wise use of ordnance and selection.

Turrets
Shoot at enemy turrets, 4+ per usual.

Limited Ordnance

Ordnance can be damaged or pushed to the point that it will not be bale to be relaunched until extensive repairs have been made to the squadrons. To represent this any time an attack craft marker is removed (for any reason) roll 1D6 for each marker. on a roll of 2,3,4,5 the squadron is still in good shape and can be reloaded at any time. On a roll of 1 or 6 the squadron is too damaged to continue fighting and must be removed from the Ordnance Pool, remove it and place it some where that it will not get mixed into the pool accidentally.

Turrets

As per the Rule book

Torpedoes

Ships equiped with torpedoes may select up to 10 salvos of torpedoes (from those available according to their fleet lists). If a ship has been upgraded with special torpedoes they may take any number of salvos of these in combination with any they have available normally, but these do count against their limit of 10. Ships torpedoes are specific to them and cannot be combined in a pool in the manner of attack craft. The owning player should keep track of the number of salvos and what type on their fleet roster sheet.

In other games, AC squadrons can only stay for a limited number of turns, too, but other than reducing Ld by 1 for every turn out there, I'm not sure if BFG would really benefit from this (in the background, especially after the various global campaigns, AC are viewed as long range quite often).

The Fury Interceptor is the most common starfighter used by the Imperial Navy for space combat. With some variants reaching 60 to 70 metres in length, the more common patterns of the Fury are significantly larger than most fighters designed for atmospheric operations, and it carries a three-man crew, including a pilot, navigator and gunner. On occasion, an Astropath psyker will also be aboard, to provide greater communications capability. The Fury's reinforced hull contains an extensive network of circuitry and life-support systems, and even has a small chemical toilet and sleeping compartment for the crew. Furies are normally equipped with multiple forward-firing banks of Lascannons and anti-starfighter missiles. An average carrier can carry upwards of 1,000-2,000 Furies (although most will carry less as to increase their capacity to carry more Starhawks and atmospheric craft), split into fighter wings comprised of roughly 15 interceptors each.

Starhawk bombers are larger, slower spacecraft, designed to carry a heavy payload of Plasma Bombs and armour piercing missiles for use against enemy capital ships. Crewed by a pilot, co-pilot, Tech-priest (plus Acolytes), various turret gunners and a logistics officer, a standard Starhawk features limited sleeping quarters, chemical toilets and even an automated medical unit inside its hull. Armed with a multitude of short-range turret-mounted defence weapons, used to fend off enemy starfighters, a lone Starhawk can wreak havoc among enemy fighter squadrons before swooping in to deliver a crippling missile strike on an enemy capital ship. On rare occasions, Starhawks can be modified to carry and launch a very small number of anti-starship torpedoes. A standard carrier warship can carry between 1,000-2,000 Starhawks.

Id say thats pretty long range.

I think thats about it

[AndrewChristlieb]

I was wrong I forgot something 

Attacking Squadrons

When attacking squadrons Bombers and Assault boats may "roll over" their damage to any ship within their movement distance that is in the same squadron. To help offset this squadrons may count their turret value as +1 for each ship in the squadron that is in danger of the attack, If they choose to do so the squadron may NOT receive an additional bonus due to massed turrets.

Example: 4 swords are attacked by a wave of bombers the bombers are in range of 3 of the swords so the swords turret value would be equal to 2 (the base for a sword) +2 (one for each additional sword that is being attacked, *note* The 4th sword is not adding a turret to the value because it is outside of the bombers range) for a total of 4. Unlike massed turrets since the bombers are attacking all 3 ships the bonus value IS added to the armor value. In this case the modified armor value would be 5(base)+2(turret base)+2(additional ships being attacked) total of 9.

Attack craft are not required to attack the whole squadron and indeed it would be foolish for any but the largest of attack craft waves to take on capitol ship squadrons in this fashion, they may however still attack individual ships, but note those ships do not receive any bonus to turrets for squadroning.

[Plaxor]

Really love it Horizon. I wonder why we didn't think of it before. I mean at least the (D6+Bombers)-(Turrets+Armour)=#hits concept. I wonder how it would play out mathematically vs current system.

[Phthisis]

Mathematically it's complete rubbish.

4 bombers vs 2 turrets in current rules averages 1.5 hits with a ceiling of 6. In Horizon's version they average .166 hits with a ceiling of 1 hit.  Bombers are so unlikely to cause damage, even vs escorts, that there's no reason to ever use them.

Most ships in the game with AC have 4 bays.  This means ships with 3 turrets are practically immune to bombers unless crippled and ships with 4 turrets are completely immune. 

Also, there isn't any way to port this system over to ships that rely on Holofields rather than turrets.


We have a system where bombers do D3 attacks and you only deduct turrets once off the back end. (d3+d3+d3+d3-T).  Holofields count as 6+ armor vs bombers.  Ork bombers do D2 attacks.  If you run the math you'll find that it keeps the numbers around 2t the same, takes it easier on T1 and allows bombers to attack BBs without a lot of messy rules changes.

[Plaxor]

@Pthisis, you are right about the math, and it would need to be modified to a more 'accurate' system. Possibly D3xbombers+1xfighters(max=bombers)-Turrets+armour.

Ships which rely solely on holofields no longer exist in BFGR, or MMS1.9

With what Horizon said 4x surviving bombers would do .5 hits vs t2, less than their expected 1.5 from normal.

However it was always RCgothics & My vision that turrets would only affect bombers by destroying them, rather than removing attacks off the back end. So it would seem sensible to do just an armour subtraction. (D6+4)-5 would grant an average of 2.5 hits. Pretty reasonable, and in fact if you don't count the first bomber, then (D6+3)-5=1.5 hits, an identical thing.

It was always a hole in the game that made Bombers vary so widely against varying turretted vessels, and it made for no reason to have vessels with more than 6 turrets. Turret suppression is a complicated thing, and this would be nice to fix as well.

I'm not a huge fan of limited numbers of AC, as it is unknown territory, difficult to balance and there is some question of the value of it compared to the cost of the increased need for notes.

However, you could potentially say that there is limited ordnance like Horizon has, and that prior to the game before deploying you note how many AC of each type you have in your launch bays.

AC are destroyed when they run into fighters or are shot by direct fire weapons as normal. Fighters escorting bombers or assault boats would 'prevent' either from being destroyed by turrets, as they are able to suppress them long enough for the bombers to survive. Naturally in this case bombers would likely be 'disabled' first, saying that they weren't able to deploy their bombs successfully.

Fighter-bombers would simply do (D3+X)-A, and would never be 'destroyed' by turret fire. Overall I like it quite a bit, but it would need more analysis.