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Author Topic: Streamlining BFG  (Read 22801 times)

Offline Phthisis

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2011, 05:39:59 PM »
@Sigiroth

From the very beginning it has been game>realism and strategy>luck. 

The argumentation so far has been mostly about realism because that's what people are upset about.  That and rolling dice.

With all respect, arguments about realism based on a fictional universe are shaky, especially with very little to go on in terms of cannonical fluff.  You think executing a SO is difficult and failure has consequences, I think it's relatively easy but has drawbacks.  You think that orders are the pergative of the captain, I think SO represents the Admiral calling for unusual actions.  The only thing we seem to agree is that the existing rules are a bad representation of any system of command.
My primary concern is how the rules function.  I feel that the fluff about command checks can be changed to fit the rules, just like you did for SO with BFG:R. 

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Really what you're saying is that in your opinion: "This sort of thing seems to happen too much and should be toned down a little. Furthermore, I think that orders should be automatic for X reasons and what do you all think of this idea ...."

You're interpretation on my argument is nose on.  I'd love to discuss this with someone.  We'd get a lot further than arguing fluff ideals and my ability as a player.

On your boarding fix:
It keeps escorts from being able to rape BBs because of dice (or do anything at all for that matter), but this solution now makes escort vs escort boarding absurd.  It also doesn't fix the wierdness for capital ships boarding larger vessels (dauntless vs cruiser, cruiser vs bb).

Our system fixes it all.  And a reminder, escorts boarding capital ships do so in the form of H&R attacks in our system, where a 1 results in their death.


Offline horizon

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2011, 09:27:26 PM »
Which proposal on boarding? Mine or Sigoroth's?

So escorts use other rules for boarding vs capital ships = adding rules = opposed of streamlining.


Special Orders
I think most opinions have been said on the system. x people prefer the current SO system, y people prefer your system, z people prefer something else.
Now a lot has been said why the Ld people like it that way. You do not agree it seems. Which is fine. Discussion can be closed to be honest.

Warp Drive implosion
leaving aside being caught as the consequens of a tactical choice you and your group dislike this thing. So far no one has been persuaded/convinced and prefer the warp drive implosion as is.
You can bring your arguments back and forth as you did, had a discussion bla bla. Closed.

Boarding
room for discussion

Offline Phthisis

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2011, 09:49:38 PM »
I think youre right about WDI.  Were not going to get anywhere on that one.  Same goes for forcing turrets to pick between targets.  Those are really small issues anyway.

The SO system I'm not ready to close the door on yet.  Despite having differing opinions on what the fluff is, we may have just broken through to a point where we can discuss what we want in terms of a game mechanic. I think that there may be groundwork laid with Sigiroth and Thinking Stone for, at the very least, a decent discussion about how to rework the SO system, and possibly do so in a way people will agree to.

Boarding would be great to talk about more. 
I was responding to Sigiroth's boarding suggestion.  Im sorry, but I don't remember yours, Horizon.

Also, bomber rules got dropped somewhere along the way.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2011, 11:55:12 PM »
You're interpretation on my argument is nose on.  I'd love to discuss this with someone.  We'd get a lot further than arguing fluff ideals and my ability as a player.

The thing about why people are questioning your ability as a player is that the reasons for your wanting to instigate the changes are related to ability.

1. You want SOs to be automatic. While removing the luck factor is fine, it dumbs down the game too much. You're ability to adapt to sudden game changing events will not be tested. Therefore it is related to ability. As they say in the other game I play and would be applicable to other games as well: Suck it up and play!

2. You want to remove turrets vs AC or torps. Why? Again, it is related to ability to survive what you don't focus on with your turrets. Take this rule away and you have to make AC and even torps stronger to balance things out because as it is, things are more or less balanced at the moment.

3. And as related to Boarding:

Our system fixes it all.  And a reminder, escorts boarding capital ships do so in the form of H&R attacks in our system, where a 1 results in their death.

I don't even get up to now why you want to change boarding from a 1 dice mechanic to a multi-dice mechanic. How does this fix things? As it is, the current rule is a hard rule to understand but I think it is more how they presented the rule. As a comparison, your rules don't make it simpler and as they say adds more luck into it by rolling multiple dice, something you wished to avoid in the first place as had been pointed out.

How is this related to ability? Well, are you having a hard time understanding the existing boarding rule? Because broken down it is:

1. Get Boarding Value.
2. Total the BV and other applicable modifiers.
3. Roll a D6.

Not really so hard. Now the modifer table can be adjusted to make it easier to get the modifiers but even then, it's not that different from your system where you claim it comes out shorter because it's not like the game was built around lots of boarding. What was it? Savings of 3 seconds? Over a span of a game? Is it really that big a savings? Sure it may (or may not) encourage people to board but it still won't be the deciding factor in the game overall.

Lastly, Warp Drive Implosion. I don't get why one is so afraid of this. It rarely happens and when it does, it is big. It is awesome. It does deal a lot of damage. So what's the problem? That it can kill your ships and win the opponent the game? Well, them's the breaks. But I don't think it happens in every game that it needs changing. You feel bad that you might lose a game due to a fluke. Well, hell, lots of things happen in real life that is a fluke. The thing is what you want taken out is something that needs a 6 rolled first followed by a 12 rolled. It shouldn't be happening every game.

And even then, here where I play, both players actually anticipate getting a 12 on the crit table with glee!

If you really want to make changes, make a change because it is a bad rule and not just because it is luck based or you don't like a result.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 12:45:15 AM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline horizon

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2011, 06:17:31 AM »
The SO system I'm not ready to close the door on yet.  Despite having differing opinions on what the fluff is, we may have just broken through to a point where we can discuss what we want in terms of a game mechanic. I think that there may be groundwork laid with Sigiroth and Thinking Stone for, at the very least, a decent discussion about how to rework the SO system, and possibly do so in a way people will agree to.
But the core is people like the Ld roll, most of them do. ;)

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Boarding would be great to talk about more. 
I was responding to Sigiroth's boarding suggestion.  Im sorry, but I don't remember yours, Horizon.
Last post of my on the previous page.


Offline Phthisis

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2011, 06:37:02 AM »
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The thing about why people are questioning your ability as a player is that the reasons for your wanting to instigate the changes are related to ability.

I'll assume that it's not an attempt to discredit me and avoid the issues at hand.  Nevertheless, you'll never prove a rule is bad by questioning my motives.  Even if I were a slack-jawed dimwit who was raging against a couple losses and had decided to change the game for his own benefit, these rules would perform the same function and have an existence of their own apart from me, and function the exact same as if I were the most brilliant game designer in history.  

Your argument as that these rules, compared to the existing rules, make it too easy to play.  By eliminating the random element, a player of lesser skill is on equal footing with a player of greater prowess.  My argument is that by leaving the random factor in, a player of greater prowess is dragged down to a player of lesser skill's level.  I think my argument is a bit simpler than yours.

BFG is a strategy wargame. There are two factors that influence the outcome of the game: the player's decision making and chance (dice).  You make the decision to shoot but the dice will determine the level of success you achieve.  Canny players pay careful attention to probability and use their knowledge of probability to inform their decisions.  With most actions in the game, there are varying levels of success.  When shooting you can completely whiff it, get about average or you can give them a good pounding.  While on BFI you can save against every single hit, save only some of them or take every hit just like you hadn't braced.  Over the length of a game, you will roll enough dice that they will likely start to even out a bit (but not always).

I don't think that anyone will argue that movement isn't the most important decision that a player makes in the game.  Movement effects firing position, and firing position can positively or negatively effect damage.  The measure of a player's skill is whether they can outmaneuver their opponent to get the best firing position and then exploit it.  After all, that's how you win games.  
Ship movement, for the most part, is very predictable.  There are very restrictive rules regarding how a ship moves.  There are minimums or maximums for movement distance, they have to move straight ahead for a period of time and can make fairly narrow turns (4 turns to rotate 180*).  
How SO fit into this is that they are the very basis of strategy for the majority of the fleets in the game.  They give a player options so that their battle plans can be somewhat unpredictable for the opponent.  Normally they only turn 45*, but all of the sudden they turn 90*.  Normally they only move 20cm, but those ships just moved 36!  They have to move at least 10cm, but it just stopped completely.  These SO add an element of freedom to the overall strategy of the game beyond the usually restrictive movement framework.
So, as a player, you can utilize SO to enact a plan.  The problem is that SO use Ld tests.  Ld tests are pass/fail and at most Ld values has a significant chance of failure.  What's worse is that once you fail one, your whole fleet loses the ability for the rest of the turn. You've made the decision on what you want to do, for better or worse, before you've cast the dice.  If you're a skilled player and have created a good strategy that will work, the only thing that the Ld mechanic can do is remove your ability to enact your strategy.  This saves your opponent's butt.  Of course if youre a bad player and have a terrible plan that will get you killed, failing a Ld for a SO that was a bad idea saves your butt and keeps you from losing.  The only function of the Ld check for SO is to prevent a players strategy from functioning as intended.  This rewards bad players and punishes good players.

This is why I'm against using random chance to limit the use of SO.  

I can see your point that if you fail a Ld check, a good player will come up with a new plan.  I have some issues with that idea.  Failing a SO check means that you have no more options.  There's no difference between failing an SO check and not having a plan to begin with.  You'll have to sit on your hands through your turn and your opponents and hope that the consequences of doing nothing smart don't ruin your hopes for victory.  But often they do.
I've seen very good players fall for obvious ploys not because they didn't see the ploy or know they needed to avoid it, but rather because they failed their first or second SO check and their fleet was torn to bits before they had another opportunity to react.

If anything your ability to adapt will be tested MORE if players could perform a couple of SO automatically per turn.  First, you'd still have all the randomness in shooting that can make you change your plans.  But now you have an opponent that can successfully perform a strategy that you need to react to!
The old adage that battle plans never survive contact with the enemy is about having to change your strategy to count theirs, not your army turning retarded and not doing what it's told.

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You want to remove turrets vs AC or torps. Why?
Because it's an antiquated rule that should have gone away with the limits they placed on how much AC you could have on the board at one time.  It takes A LOT of ordnance poured onto a single ship before the decision on what to fire at makes a difference.  In fact, the amount of ordnance you need to dump on a ship before the defender's decision matters is potentially enough to destroy the ship. And even in those situations, the decision is a no-brainer based solely on what you see on the board at the time you make the decision.  The boost that combined ordnance gets is so ridiculously small that it's not worth considering.  Losing it isn't going to change a player's decision to hit a target with torpedoes and AC simultaneously one bit.
I don't think that it hurts the game being in it. I just think that it's so insignificant that it's pointless and can be deleted without changing anything about the game.  

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I don't even get up to now why you want to change boarding from a 1 dice mechanic to a multi-dice mechanic. How does this fix things? As it is, the current rule is a hard rule to understand but I think it is more how they presented the rule. As a comparison, your rules don't make it simpler and as they say adds more luck into it by rolling multiple dice, something you wished to avoid in the first place as had been pointed out.

I want to change it to a multi-dice mechanic specifically to limit the amount of random chance in boarding.  There's nothing more random than a single die roll.  The more dice, the more predictable the result.  It drastically cuts down on the randomness in boarding.
Also, psychologically, its easier for the human brain to count than add.  And this system is intuitive.  And it doesn't have any strange situations where weaker ships have a marked advantage over stronger ships. And after lots and lots of trials everyone who has used it or even tested dice is MUCH happier with the results than with the previous system.  

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Lastly, Warp Drive Implosion. I don't get why one is so afraid of this.
It's not fear.  It's because it's an element that only serves to screw a player hard.  Its dice screwing a player at that, not their opponent's decision.  It can cost good players the game or hand it to a bad player.

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The thing is what you want taken out is something that needs a 6 rolled first followed by a 12 rolled. It shouldn't be happening every game.

There's no first 6 to be rolled.  Every time a ship dies or a hulk takes damage, you roll 2d6.  If it's 12 its a WDI.  

Lets say that 8 ships die during the course of a game (ignoring hits to hulks).  There is a 20% chance that there will be at least one WDI.  It's not as unlikely as it seems.  We see one every 3-4 games here, which looks to be about average.

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And even then, here where I play, both players actually anticipate getting a 12 on the crit table with glee!
Cinematic explosions are cool.  Maybe this can be done another way.

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If you really want to make changes, make a change because it is a bad rule and not just because it is luck based or you don't like a result.
We changed Ld for SO and the WDI because they are bad rules.  We left gunnery unchanged because it's a good rule even though it has a lot of luck involved and we may not like the results.


Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2011, 06:54:25 AM »
From the very beginning it has been game>realism and strategy>luck. 

The argumentation so far has been mostly about realism because that's what people are upset about.  That and rolling dice.

With all respect, arguments about realism based on a fictional universe are shaky, especially with very little to go on in terms of cannonical fluff.

There are two different types of realism. There's objective physical realism, which describes how physical objects should interact. For the most part, we can safely hand waive a lot of this. Then there's behavioural realism; which describes how people and factions should interact. This is the important one. For example, we can be fairly safe in saying that the Eldar would not invite Slaanesh over for a tea party.

As for the strategy/luck blend, I think that I'm, for the most part, happy with the balance we have in this regard. At least insofar as ship explosions are concerned.


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You think executing a SO is difficult and failure has consequences, I think it's relatively easy but has drawbacks.

Yarp. The difference being that I'm right.  ;) No seriously, it is really a matter of preference, and which argument people personally find more convincing.

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You think that orders are the pergative of the captain, I think SO represents the Admiral calling for unusual actions.  The only thing we seem to agree is that the existing rules are a bad representation of any system of command.

I find it quite plausible that 4 of the orders are the prerogative of the admiral. I can't see why the admiral would even need to issue the order to RO. The fact that it is a special order seems to suggest that it is a difficult process, since it can't be a tactical decision. Hence some notional support for the idea of the difficult processes concept of special orders. However, where you really lose me is on the BFI issue. I don't think that it's reasonable to suggest that the admiral passes down those sorts of orders. Hell, he probably doesn't even do it on his own ship, leaving it to the captain instead.

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It keeps escorts from being able to rape BBs because of dice (or do anything at all for that matter), but this solution now makes escort vs escort boarding absurd.  It also doesn't fix the wierdness for capital ships boarding larger vessels (dauntless vs cruiser, cruiser vs bb).

Er, well it wouldn't change how escort vs escort boarding actions work. How is it absurd? I don't think that it's wise, foregoing your fire to attempt a risky tactic that may backfire. Mind you, if you've got a bunch of cheap chaos iconoclasts to waste and you want a way to take down some expensive escorts like defence monitors or Tau Castellans then it'd probably be worth the attempt.

Also, what cap ship boarding weirdness? A Dauntless is at a distinct disadvantage in boarding a cruiser, particularly if it's a Chaos cruiser. The Imperial player will lose the opportunity to shoot with the Dauntless and to have any hope of winning he'll need to put a BM in contact from another source (therefore it's a Dauntless + support vessel against the cruiser) and to have the best chance he'll have to try to cherry pick a target that's on special orders. This would all just serve to make it an even break and if the Dauntless has taken even 1 point of damage then it'll probably still be behind. To me this is too risky. I'd prefer just to fire the 3 lances.

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Our system fixes it all.  And a reminder, escorts boarding capital ships do so in the form of H&R attacks in our system, where a 1 results in their death.

Eh, seems pointless to me. Think I'd rather have the firepower of the escort to be honest.

Offline horizon

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2011, 07:11:54 AM »
How SO fit into this is that they are the very basis of strategy for the majority of the fleets in the game.  They give a player options so that their battle plans can be somewhat unpredictable for the opponent.  Normally they only turn 45*, but all of the sudden they turn 90*.  Normally they only move 20cm, but those ships just moved 36!  They have to move at least 10cm, but it just stopped completely.  These SO add an element of freedom to the overall strategy of the game beyond the usually restrictive movement framework.
Nope. Special Orders are never part of my strategy. They can help me (reload, lock on, aaf) but they will never be part of the plan.

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So, as a player, you can utilize SO to enact a plan.  The problem is that SO use Ld tests.  Ld tests are pass/fail and at most Ld values has a significant chance of failure.  What's worse is that once you fail one, your whole fleet loses the ability for the rest of the turn. You've made the decision on what you want to do, for better or worse, before you've cast the dice.  If you're a skilled player and have created a good strategy that will work, the only thing that the Ld mechanic can do is remove your ability to enact your strategy.  This saves your opponent's butt.  Of course if youre a bad player and have a terrible plan that will get you killed, failing a Ld for a SO that was a bad idea saves your butt and keeps you from losing.  The only function of the Ld check for SO is to prevent a players strategy from functioning as intended.  This rewards bad players and punishes good players.
As you see, this would never happen to me as SO's are not part of the plan.

Also, a pool is a restriction. At a sudden all orders are gone. That's weird, illogical. To me.

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I can see your point that if you fail a Ld check, a good player will come up with a new plan.  I have some issues with that idea.  Failing a SO check means that you have no more options.  There's no difference between failing an SO check and not having a plan to begin with.  You'll have to sit on your hands through your turn and your opponents and hope that the consequences of doing nothing smart don't ruin your hopes for victory.  But often they do.
I've seen very good players fall for obvious ploys not because they didn't see the ploy or know they needed to avoid it, but rather because they failed their first or second SO check and their fleet was torn to bits before they had another opportunity to react.
Start planning without special orders.

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Lastly, Warp Drive Implosion. I don't get why one is so afraid of this.
It's not fear.  It's because it's an element that only serves to screw a player hard.  Its dice screwing a player at that, not their opponent's decision.  It can cost good players the game or hand it to a bad player.
Choice of tactics. The good player will now a warp drive implosion can happen, he will position his ships to deal with it/avoid it. That is what a good player does.

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The thing is what you want taken out is something that needs a 6 rolled first followed by a 12 rolled. It shouldn't be happening every game.

There's no first 6 to be rolled.  Every time a ship dies or a hulk takes damage, you roll 2d6.  If it's 12 its a WDI. 
First you need to destroy the ship. ;) Still two sixes needed.

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Lets say that 8 ships die during the course of a game (ignoring hits to hulks).  There is a 20% chance that there will be at least one WDI.  It's not as unlikely as it seems.  We see one every 3-4 games here, which looks to be about average.
Impressive all those explosions. I wish I could get to the average of 1-2 per game. ;)

Perhaps I should dissallow disengaging then. ;)


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If you really want to make changes, make a change because it is a bad rule and not just because it is luck based or you don't like a result.
We changed Ld for SO and the WDI because they are bad rules. 
All in your own opinion of course. As of course I will disagree. ;)

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2011, 07:34:07 AM »
On the issue of WDI, they're somewhat rare and don't really do that much. Sure you might get hit by one, but those (usually) 8 lances aren't on LO, so you'll average 4 hits. Which is typically 2 damage past shields, maybe a bit more, maybe less. Bracing helps. Sure, this sucks balls if you've got your entire fleet packed in tight around the exploding ship, but who does that?

Also, we're not talking an 18cm radius here. We're talking a potential of 18cm. Not terribly likely to exceed 14cm at the outside. So if you've got a bunch of ships within 14cm of the ship that you're focussing all your fire into, well, you deserve it. If you're in the 15-18cm range band and you still get hit then that's just bad luck. If you get a lot of ships hit then it's simply how the chips fall. If you go all in with pocket aces against 7/2 off suit then you've done the best you could. If the flop turns up 772 then that's just the way it goes.

Offline Taggerung

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2011, 05:02:50 PM »
Oh hell no.

*Slowly backs out*

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2011, 12:42:38 AM »
Not discrediting you in any way but I feel that's how your argument is coming out.

"I'm playing great but because of a failed SO, I now cannot continue to play as effectively therefore I will lose the game, regardless of any plans I can think of to alleviate the failed SO so we must change it to auto pass."

"I'm playing great but because I grouped my models together, the WDI which happens very rarely came up which either damaged or wiped out my models so now I can't win anymore with my remaining ships so we must get rid of it."

"I want Boarding to be more predictable so I will let the players roll tons (yes, tons in BFG terms) of dice in what is essentially an accessory to the game, not its core."

Let's face it, a player with greater prowess will always have the upper hand even if the fates are unkindly to him because his prowess gives him the will to overcome the odds whereas a player with lesser prowess will most likely pack it up.

And your logic on testing ability is backwards. SO failures can and will screw things up but its how you adapt to it that will truly test a player especially on how to handle the ploy. If SOs are autopassed, the solution is simple since you see the ploy already. So what's hard about that? Where's the adaptation in that? It's adversity that breeds adaptation.

To your point about adding dice to Boarding, again, why make something complicated when its not really essential to the game? If you want to get more reliable results: fix the modifier chart. A lone Escort should not be able to board and win even half the time going up against a full hit battleship. Rolling a 6 vs the Emperor's 1 (maybe 2) should be the best case for it to win Boarding unless you have special rules like Nids or Chaos (where the Emperor rolling a 2 comes in) or are tag teaming the battleship.

The turrets vs ordnance thing has been brought up before. Frankly, in spite of all the comments, I think it is fine at the moment. If it is removed, then I would want to see ordnance tweaked to be better.

As for the WDI, I thought you meant while the battle is taking place. Now that I know you meant a hulk burning, wouldn't it be kinda obvious to avoid the burning thing in the first place? I don't think you still keep your ships around it right? And as pointed out 18 cm is the max. Chances are you will get lower area. Really, WDIs are not really anything to plan for or against. Heck it could happen in the game rolling a 6 and then 12 on a crit table. But do you really say, "I gotta watch out for those 18cm WDIs!"?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 12:51:20 AM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline Phthisis

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2011, 04:31:31 PM »
@Admiral
I've never presented our changes as a way to alter the game to favor a particular play style.  That's an accusation someone made against me.  I don't have to live up to it. Actually I prefer to shoot from long range, which is why I play chaos.  These changes to WDI and ordnance nerfs and changes in Ld rules actually nerf the Chaos fleet a bit and benefit the IN and Orks more.  Were I changing the game to suit myself I'd not be nerfing ordnance and making the game safer for fleets that have to fight close up. These changes are purely about game design. 

Andy Chambers screwed up.  Everyone agrees on that point.  There have been many attempts to correct the issues with this system.  A lot of these fixes point back to the same core problem.  Look at this from a game theory perspective.  Using Ld tests to turn the decision making process into a mixed strategy system isn't necessary.  There isn't a Nash Equilibrium to disrupt here.  Its a non cooperative zero-sum game. And it has stochastic resluts.  Combining mixed strategy and stochastic outcomes is just plain bad design, especially for a strategy game.  It creates a system where a player's decision making is overridden by chance.  Its so bad a combination that its not even found in gambling games.

Sigiroth addressed the most apparent symptom of the problem with MMS.  It dragged Eldar down a bit closer to everyone else's level.  However good a bandage that was, it doesn't heal the wound.  Our system removes the mixed strategy element all together, bringing BFG back in line with other strategy games and putting Eldar on equal footing with the rest of the fleets.

Your assertion that a better player will overcome odds is obviously false.  What if you fail every roll to hit in the game?  Can you cause damage without rolling dice?  Can you win without causing damage?  There is a threshold in every game with stochastic outcomes that no skill can overcome.  But youre in luck!  Our system gives the player more control over their strategy and a lower threshold for overcoming bad dice.  I think this is the effect that you're saying 'dumbs down' the game.  But as it shifts the balance away from luck towards strategy, I think its smartening the game up.

Regarding adaptation, you opponent provides the adversity that leads to the need to adapt.  SO are a means of adaptation.  Dice just keep you from adapting.  We remove the obstacle to adaptation.

I like boarding.  I want to see it more prevalent.  It never factored into the game before because the rules were so bad.  Now that theyre decent, boarding can add an additional valid tactic.   I know you guys like gunnery, but adding more working strategies makes the game more complex.  IMO, the modifier chart system is unfixable because you only roll a single die.

I agree that WDIs arent really anything to plan around.  Horizon confuses me by telling me ships only have any kind of explosion 1/10 times when he plays but he also spreads out, loosing shooting bonuses, specifically to avoid it.  I'm just opposed to the extreme damage potential attached to the WDI regardless of its likelihood.

@Horizon
It must be nice to play Eldar!  You get the effect of the manouvering SO (or better) without a test, the ability to run for celestial phenomena at any time and high Ld for disengaging. 

Since you lose a lot of VPs when you allow opposing ships to disengage, we like to make it very difficult here.  Fighters tend to follow crippled ships.  Try disengaging by passing a Ld test modified down to a 4 or 5.

But youve got charmed dice, right?







« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 04:35:37 PM by Phthisis »

Offline Phthisis

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2011, 08:15:29 PM »
@Sigiroth

Part of the rationale behind streamlining BFG has been to make large and small scale games more playable (think BFG Apocalypse). The existing leadership system puts a damper on playing bigger games.  It also punishes escort squadrons unfairly.  This is a big reason that almost every gaming group plays at 1500pts.  Its the sweet spot where the Ld rules arent burdensome.  We want to open that up a bit.

Another thing about larger games is there are more ships, and usually in the same space.  Its easier for ships to get crowded when fighting.  More crowding means less disengaging, more dying ships and hulks, more exploding ships, and more WDIs.  The chances of WDIs, or explosions in general increases very quickly as the game size increases.  Chain reactions can (and have) happened and although its cool the first couple of times it gets real old real fast.

I think we are approaching a functioning chain-of-command and leadership model for BFG.   You agree that movement SOs are the perogative of the admiral.  I agree that LO and BFI can be the perogative of the captain.  They appear to be different
The idea regarding the movement SO is that the check represents whether the crew properly prepares the ship for the manouver or not.  I think the helmsman is turning anyway.

I propose a hybrid ruleset.

Movement SO are now Fleet Orders and a number of them are purchased along with the admiralty for the fleet.  They are drawn from a pool just like my earlier proposal and the function works automatically.   Each ship performing a FO must take a ld test all at once (like your proposed rules in BFG:R)  If they fail, the ship still performs the manouver but they suffer a critical hit as the forces involved wreak havoc.  A normal crit may be too much.  Perhaps roll d6+1 on the crit table?

LO & BFI are now Captain Orders.  The Ld test is taken per ship.  If the test passes they get the effect.  If it doesn't they dont.  Other ships can attempt to test even if another ship fails. No penalty for failure. 

« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 08:24:31 PM by Phthisis »

Offline horizon

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2011, 08:26:51 PM »
Bricks...

I play:
AdMech
Chaos (two fleets)
Tau
Craftworld Eldar
Corsair Eldar
Imperial Navy

I play against:
Chaos
Imperial Navy
Tau
Orks
Space Marines
Corsair Eldar.

Talking about false aquisations mr P. ;)

Everyone can disengage.

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Andy Chambers screwed up.  Everyone agrees on that point. 
What? I don't agree. Andy Chambers only messed up with allowing Gav's Eldar rules into the game. He created a really good game. And considering the number of FAQ's which are really low it was a grand start. Mind you, he had things better in v1.0 then they do now in FAQ2010.

So keep that opinion to yourselves and not everyone. 'kay?  ;)

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Sigiroth addressed the most apparent symptom of the problem with MMS.  It dragged Eldar down a bit closer to everyone else's level.  However good a bandage that was, it doesn't heal the wound.  Our system removes the mixed strategy element all together, bringing BFG back in line with other strategy games and putting Eldar on equal footing with the rest of the fleets.
I think you misunderstood something. Which MMS problem did Sigoroth mention?

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Your assertion that a better player will overcome odds is obviously false.  What if you fail every roll to hit in the game?  Can you cause damage without rolling dice?  Can you win without causing damage?  There is a threshold in every game with stochastic outcomes that no skill can overcome.  But youre in luck!  Our system gives the player more control over their strategy and a lower threshold for overcoming bad dice.  I think this is the effect that you're saying 'dumbs down' the game.  But as it shifts the balance away from luck towards strategy, I think its smartening the game up.
Seriously, play chess.
This isn't meant to be offensive. But BFG clearly is not the game for you. I think you should look into other space battle systems and transfer the 40kfluff/modes into that system. It is possible and no problem at all.
You can change BFG rules as well. No problem. But you keep on mentioning on how you are right (from the start, which caused some too harsh comments, but it was triggered).


I am not convinced on the special order pool. It is more unrealistic then the Ld test!!

Pool: admiral has no more ideas. I'd let a commissar shoot him...

Ld: admiral has ideas but due battle heat/mocking crew/etc etc it fails.


Offline Phthisis

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Re: Streamlining BFG
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2011, 09:18:26 PM »
@Horizon
More bickering and splitting hairs.

I merely accused you of playing Eldar. Eldar have an easier time manouvering and disengaging.  Was I right?

I said everyone agrees Andy Chambers screwed up. I didn't give a specific screw up because we dont all agree how he did, but everyone can point to a major error.  My theory is all these errors lead back to the same cause.

If I remember correctly, the issue Sigiroth was correcting with the Eldar was that a careful player couldn't be meaningully engaged by another fleet.  I think that issue was a symptom of the bad orders system.  Namely that Eldar didn't suffer from it the way all other fleets do.  If you fix the orders system, MMS may not be necessary.  I'm saying MMS patches the system, but to fix it you have to address SO.

Go play another system?  No thanks.  You didn't like the Eldar rules. Youve changed the game FAR more than I am trying to now.  Why didn't you just go play something else?

With regards to the order pool, in ny experience its very realistic.  Have you ever commanded men in any kind of combat situation?  I have a bit of experience in this regard, with mock combat.  As a commander, you have to simultaneously monitor the whole battle while keeping an eye on what is going on around you.  Its not easy.  Green commanders get tunnel vision and command those in their immediate area and ignore everyone else.  The stress/fear puts blinders on them.  A veteran can keep their head and coordinate the whole despite their immediate situation.  The dice pool is a representation of how well they can coordinate the fleet.  This translates into how many orders they can issue per turn.
Its not that they 'run out of ideas', anymore that a failed ld test means they run out of ideas.