Space Marine Fleet ER

[horizon]

I will write up a few playtests using the armada list and start a new thread.

Horizon,
18 lances, 8 of them on lock-on, firing at 2 squadrons that are braced, 2 points of damage suffered on each squadron past shields. (3 if the 'leftover' shot on one of them wasn't saved. So on 'average' one of them might get crippled, or if all the firepower went towards one squadron one SC would almost be dead. (in which case having an extra shield would do little 

BI,
I play as both sides, if there is two of us we swap sides for 2 'identical' games.

Admiral_d_Artagnan,
Carnages, really? Given that SCs have a 90* turn and have 6+ armour it makes it difficult to get a good shot, almost impossible on Lock-on.

Cheers,

RayB HA

weird weird weird.

Two squadrons braced is no return lock on from marines is no thawk reload is no boarding is no teleports is no aaf.

Chaos gets two rounds of full fire with all those lances.

I'm with the admiral... forgetting a rule?

[BaronIveagh]

SM with their own systems like UM would fall under the Dominion list. While they have their systems, they are still being monitored by the other organizations. How efficiently monitored? Can be bad as your example and yet might also be much better but not let on. Could also even be that like the UM, they can be open (as much as any SM can be open anyway).

Crusaders would be harder to monitor so better to limit the ammunition to one which the Munitorium can have more control. SM can still go on their crusades but only up to how long their consumables last.

The problem is Crusades like the BT's that have been going on for 10k years.  somehow I doubt they packed that much by way of supplies. 

As far as control goes: if Dominion worlds are all like the worlds of Ultramar, that's a pretty bad means of control, since not even the Inquisition can go there without an invitation.  They try to get around this prohibition with unmanned spy satellites (technically getting around them not be permitted to go there themselves) but so far the Ultramarines have proven adept at spotting them and eliminating the unwanted ones.

fracas has a good point about 'munitionless' weapons.  Lasers (duh), lances (again duh), plasma (byproduct of starship drive), and disruptors (ionized hydrogen) would be preferred, since the components would be longer lasting for their size and availability than macrocannons.  Torps and bombardment cannons would be less viable, as would strike craft (unless they were stowed in some sort of stasis holds when not in use).

[RCgothic]

Or would be, if it weren't fairly prominent in the fluff that the power relays required for energy weapons like lances are pretty short lived and need constant replacing, thereby negating any ammunition saving.

[BaronIveagh]

Or would be, if it weren't fairly prominent in the fluff that the power relays required for energy weapons like lances are pretty short lived and need constant replacing, thereby negating any ammunition saving.

Which has never made much sense, as a relay is a type of automatic switch.  Even for the highest outputs they're actually quite small.  

An example would be the circuit breakers in your house.  If they need frequent replacing, there's something seriously wrong with your wiring.  

And the only place they'd be used on a lance at all is on the transmission lines (which can't be what they're replacing as those relays failing means the line has shorted) or as part of the circuit that controls the capacitor charge (which might possibly have a large heatsink, but given a lance only fires about once a half hour, is unlikely.).

The only way we'd need thousands of men is if they're have a very large one and are passing it bucket brigade style up from the supply room rather then have one guy carry it on a cart.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

The problem is Crusades like the BT's that have been going on for 10k years.  somehow I doubt they packed that much by way of supplies.  

It's not like the Munitoriums have ceased production of supplies during those 10k years. Crusade, conquer, construct, continue. Heck the whole 40k universe is a Crusade writ large if you think about it.

As far as control goes: if Dominion worlds are all like the worlds of Ultramar, that's a pretty bad means of control, since not even the Inquisition can go there without an invitation.  They try to get around this prohibition with unmanned spy satellites (technically getting around them not be permitted to go there themselves) but so far the Ultramarines have proven adept at spotting them and eliminating the unwanted ones.

Yes, and so you have this situation where SM do not want the Imperium itself looking into its affairs. The scenario you portray already would make them be suspect in the eyes of every other organization and yet you still want them to have the means to defeat the IN should they decide to turn coat. The Imperium while slow is not that stupid especially with the Heresy in hindsight.

fracas has a good point about 'munitionless' weapons.  Lasers (duh), lances (again duh), plasma (byproduct of starship drive), and disruptors (ionized hydrogen) would be preferred, since the components would be longer lasting for their size and availability than macrocannons.  Torps and bombardment cannons would be less viable, as would strike craft (unless they were stowed in some sort of stasis holds when not in use).

That would be ideal...if the group you want it to have can be trusted. As your post effectively proves that SM cannot be trusted since the Inquisition can't monitor them effectively, why should they be trusted with munitionless weapons? Any sane organization would provide them with the tools that fit their role, in this case ground combat and limit the tools which they don't need or provide a means of control like limited ammunition and supplies. Even on the ground, they are using Bolters and meltas more than lascannons and plasma weapons. That is their role, that is what they get and since fleet engagements are not their mandate, they shouldn't get lances on their cap ships.

[BaronIveagh]

Yes, and so you have this situation where SM do not want the Imperium itself looking into its affairs. The scenario you portray already would make them be suspect in the eyes of every other organization and yet you still want them to have the means to defeat the IN should they decide to turn coat. The Imperium while slow is not that stupid especially with the Heresy in hindsight.

No more then the adeptus mechanicus.  Who also joined Horus in the rebellion, practice heresy in the eyes of the church, have a vast private fleet with lances (and weapons potent far beyond what IN has), and don't technically have a combat role in the Imperium AT ALL beyond the Titan Legions, field repairs on IG and IN equipment, and production of munitions. Oh, and, while a single space marine going rogue or defecting to chaos is bad, a rogue magos can devastate entire worlds by themselves.

That would be ideal...if the group you want it to have can be trusted. As your post effectively proves that SM cannot be trusted since the Inquisition can't monitor them effectively, why should they be trusted with munitionless weapons? Any sane organization would provide them with the tools that fit their role, in this case ground combat and limit the tools which they don't need or provide a means of control like limited ammunition and supplies. Even on the ground, they are using Bolters and meltas more than lascannons and plasma weapons. That is their role, that is what they get and since fleet engagements are not their mandate, they shouldn't get lances on their cap ships.

As opposed to, again, the admech, that the inquisition cannot monitor effective and has far greater power and more potent weaponry?  Who's defections have blasted more worlds to ash, including Terra during the siege, than the wildest dreams of Horus?

CSMs are scary to the Imperium, but rogue admech are dangerous to it. 

And second, since when were either the Inquisition or the Adeptus Mechanicus sane organizations? 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

No more then the adeptus mechanicus.  Who also joined Horus in the rebellion, practice heresy in the eyes of the church, have a vast private fleet with lances (and weapons potent far beyond what IN has), and don't technically have a combat role in the Imperium AT ALL beyond the Titan Legions, field repairs on IG and IN equipment, and production of munitions. Oh, and, while a single space marine going rogue or defecting to chaos is bad, a rogue magos can devastate entire worlds by themselves.

Yes but who initiated the defecting and who does the fighting? Not the AM. The SM initiated the treachery. Point here is still that the SM is still more dangerous than the AM will ever be. Because they know how to make effective use of the weapons.

As opposed to, again, the admech, that the inquisition cannot monitor effective and has far greater power and more potent weaponry?  Who's defections have blasted more worlds to ash, including Terra during the siege, than the wildest dreams of Horus?

CSMs are scary to the Imperium, but rogue admech are dangerous to it. 

And second, since when were either the Inquisition or the Adeptus Mechanicus sane organizations? 

Having weapons doesn't mean you know how to use them effectively in combat. Sure they can blast planets but that's about all they know. If troops can get into an SM ship, even regular IG, the AM would be on the losing ground. Much more if they face SM. SM know how to use them effectively and are better tacticians than the regular troops.

By sane, I mean the organization would know how to set limits based on their experiences of having half the legion of supermen turn traitor and wreak havoc on the existing establishment then. For some reason, you choose to ignore that.

[BaronIveagh]

Yes but who initiated the defecting and who does the fighting? Not the AM. The SM initiated the treachery. Point here is still that the SM is still more dangerous than the AM will ever be. Because they know how to make effective use of the weapons.

Oh, no fighting at all, and certainly not with traitor skitari, elements of the legio cybernetica, and certainly not leading the assault on the Imperial Palace in the form of the Dies Irae smashing through a line that had held up space marines for a week.  Not a bit of fighting.

Let me get this straight, the people that the space marines go to in order to learn how to maintain and make the most effective use of equipment in the field don't know how to do that themselves?

Having weapons doesn't mean you know how to use them effectively in combat.

See comment above on who teaches Space Marines about that above.  The Collegia Titanica would strongly disagree with your sentiment.

Sure they can blast planets but that's about all they know. If troops can get into an SM ship, even regular IG, the AM would be on the losing ground. Much more if they face SM. SM know how to use them effectively and are better tacticians than the regular troops.

Yes, because they certainly wouldn't have heavily trained and augmented skitarii.  Who, by the way, are considered at least the equals of IG stormtroopers and tend to be backed up by heavy combat servitors.  Or, and more frighteningly, elements of the legio cybernetica, who's lesser designs include SM dreadnoughts and who's greater ones can cause trouble for Warlord class Titans.

By sane, I mean the organization would know how to set limits based on their experiences of having half the legion of supermen turn traitor and wreak havoc on the existing establishment then. For some reason, you choose to ignore that.

Because the Inq has a long history of ignoring exactly that, on numerous occasions, for various reasons.  Point of fact there's at least two radical and (technically) one puritain philosophies in the Inq that actually revolve around that idea being a good thing.  (Since, after all, it was the Thorians, not a 'radical' branch, that attempted to replicate the primarch project and make even more powerful SM.)

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Oh, no fighting at all, and certainly not with traitor skitari, elements of the legio cybernetica, and certainly not leading the assault on the Imperial Palace in the form of the Dies Irae smashing through a line that had held up space marines for a week.  Not a bit of fighting.

Oh sure. Sending a big giant mech to break the siege. Such a difficult task. Take away the mech and put guns in their pilots hands. Then let's see them do combat.

Let me get this straight, the people that the space marines go to in order to learn how to maintain and make the most effective use of equipment in the field don't know how to do that themselves?

Yep. Construction is different from application.

See comment above on who teaches Space Marines about that above.  The Collegia Titanica would strongly disagree with your sentiment.

Disagree all they want. They're main advantage are the Titans with the SM not really having anything much to take one on (though the SM don't seem to think so). Take away those big toys and they would have a hard time dealing with SM.

Yes, because they certainly wouldn't have heavily trained and augmented skitarii.  Who, by the way, are considered at least the equals of IG stormtroopers and tend to be backed up by heavy combat servitors.  Or, and more frighteningly, elements of the legio cybernetica, who's lesser designs include SM dreadnoughts and who's greater ones can cause trouble for Warlord class Titans.

Yep toys for the big boys. However, experience in battle still is different from merely piloting one and the AM have not been seeing as much action as you'd like them to be.

Because the Inq has a long history of ignoring exactly that, on numerous occasions, for various reasons.  Point of fact there's at least two radical and (technically) one puritain philosophies in the Inq that actually revolve around that idea being a good thing.  (Since, after all, it was the Thorians, not a 'radical' branch, that attempted to replicate the primarch project and make even more powerful SM.)

Yup and they haven't been successful have they? Obviously in the 40k universe, you would be one of these radicals and I of course would be on the opposite end. Better safe than have to be sorry again.

[Vaaish]

I would wager that the AdMech has a fair bit more leeway on the whole issue simply because it produces most of the munitions and equipment for the Guard and marines. You tend to overlook things and play nice if you only have a single supplier of mission critical equipment and you don't want them cutting your off completely.

It seems that it's a bit more reciprocal than in the case of the marines. Without the Imperium and it's soldiers the AdMech gets over run and without the AdMech the Imperium can't effectively equip it's troops. Without the Marines, the Imperium could still chuck more men at a problem, so there just isn't quite the same incentive to give marines a longer leash.

[BaronIveagh]

Oh sure. Sending a big giant mech to break the siege. Such a difficult task. Take away the mech and put guns in their pilots hands. Then let's see them do combat.

Those are called skitarii and in the fluff they're quite capable of giving Space marines a hard time. Praetorians (not to be confused with the Praetorian battle servitor) being themselves, genetically and/or mechanically augmented supermen who do, on occasion wear terminator armor and have been known to have heavy weapons in place of hands and are generally the loyalist version of an obliterator.

  While I'm sure the titan princeps himself would not be any great noise as a soldier, the over 1,000 skitarii that he's carrying on board will make quite an impression.  Since an Imperator Titan doubles as a troop transport.

Yep. Construction is different from application.  

And, again, the people that techmarines go to to learn how to maintain and make the most effective use of equipment in the field don't know how to do it themselves?

Disagree all they want. They're main advantage are the Titans with the SM not really having anything much to take one on (though the SM don't seem to think so). Take away those big toys and they would have a hard time dealing with SM.

The Collegia Titanica, despite the name, does not just do titans.  They also command their own skitarii troops.  Fluff has shown those last to be a serious threat to space marines, unlike IG.  And, actually, thier main advantage would be the legio cybernetica, who unfortunately have not had TT rules for some time, but proved so effective that some were made honorary space marines by the Desert Lions chapter.  


"Since the defeat of Horus the Legio Cybernetica has pledged itself anew...  ...Its members now take binding oaths of loyalty more terrible than any Marine Chapter oaths." Warhammer 40k Compendium, page 97.

Yup and they haven't been successful have they? Obviously in the 40k universe, you would be one of these radicals and I of course would be on the opposite end. Better safe than have to be sorry again.

Their level of success is a matter of debate.  Some of the chapters they created were successful, such as the Sons of Antaeus, who are absurdly tough even by space marine standards, with physical endurance comparable to CSMs bearing the mark of Nurgle.  Others were far too mutated, such as the Flame Falcons or the Black Dragons.  

What can be said for sure though is that the prospect of it raised such concerns among the great enemy that Fabius Bile made a point to personally intervene, apparently.   The other factions of the Inquisition were deeply disturbed that the Thorians were so close to possibly healing the Emperor and raising him from the golden throne that they made certain to have the Grey Knights make the place extra purged once the CSMs were done.

It seems that it's a bit more reciprocal than in the case of the marines. Without the Imperium and it's soldiers the AdMech gets over run and without the AdMech the Imperium can't effectively equip it's troops. Without the Marines, the Imperium could still chuck more men at a problem, so there just isn't quite the same incentive to give marines a longer leash.

Actually, the Imperium rarely defends forge worlds with ground troops.  The AdMech has proven quite capable in that under most circumstances.  The Imperial/AdMech relationshi;pp is more based on the Imperium supplying raw materials and the Admech turning them into finished goods.  The treaty of Mars states that the AdMech are a separate allied power, free from Imperial law within their own domains.  Which is very much the same deal that was given the Ultramarines, and, one would assume, similar to the one given to any SM dominion ruled over by a 1st or 2nd founding chapter.

This has led to such conflicts as the War of the Empty Cathedrals, wherein the Church tries to prevent worlds from becoming AdMech property.  Not always successfully.  

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Those are called skitarii and in the fluff they're quite capable of giving Space marines a hard time. Praetorians (not to be confused with the Praetorian battle servitor) being themselves, genetically and/or mechanically augmented supermen who do, on occasion wear terminator armor and have been known to have heavy weapons in place of hands and are generally the loyalist version of an obliterator.

A hard time yes. Guess who wins in the end?

 While I'm sure the titan princeps himself would not be any great noise as a soldier, the over 1,000 skitarii that he's carrying on board will make quite an impression.  Since an Imperator Titan doubles as a troop transport.

Not to an SM.

And, again, the people that techmarines go to to learn how to maintain and make the most effective use of equipment in the field don't know how to do it themselves?

Compared to SM warriors, how many are on the military division and how much  can they spare to do a whole lot of fighting? Really teaching someone how to maintain does not equal teaching someone how to fight with it. That comes from experience in real combat action which the AM are not as immersed in. Yes they will have a small group who has seen combat but again not as numerous as the SM. They can do well, the ones who have seen combat but his fellow AM who have not? Nope, they would be quite inefficient.

The Collegia Titanica, despite the name, does not just do titans.  They also command their own skitarii troops.  Fluff has shown those last to be a serious threat to space marines, unlike IG.  And, actually, thier main advantage would be the legio cybernetica, who unfortunately have not had TT rules for some time, but proved so effective that some were made honorary space marines by the Desert Lions chapter.  

"Since the defeat of Horus the Legio Cybernetica has pledged itself anew...  ...Its members now take binding oaths of loyalty more terrible than any Marine Chapter oaths." Warhammer 40k Compendium, page 97.

Yes, you've mentioned the Skitarii quite a while now and yes they are good themselves but again, they are not as many as SM and they would not be as much a threat as SM.

What can be said for sure though is that the prospect of it raised such concerns among the great enemy that Fabius Bile made a point to personally intervene, apparently.   The other factions of the Inquisition were deeply disturbed that the Thorians were so close to possibly healing the Emperor and raising him from the golden throne that they made certain to have the Grey Knights make the place extra purged once the CSMs were done.

Well, I would think Chaos would intervene if only to gain the knowledge for themselves. In any case, we are here to talk about SM. And much as you would want them to have munitionless weapons, sorry, I wouldn't give it to them.

[Vaaish]

Actually, the Imperium rarely defends forge worlds with ground troops.

I'm not necessarily referring to forgeworlds themselves. Without the Imperial presence at the Cadian Gate or fleet bases around the galaxy to halt aggression before it reaches the ad mech worlds it would be a whole lot harder for the admech to defend them.

[BaronIveagh]

A hard time yes. Guess who wins in the end?

Whoever the plot calls for.  If it's about SM the SM win gloriously.  If it's not, they usually die in the first volley (for examples of this, see Titan and Soul Drinkers, respectively).

Not to an SM.

Well, the princeps might make an impression on the SM the titan steps on, but yes, the thousand skitarii will make an impression on the other SM around, particularly with legio backup, since each legio cybernetica cataphract is built on the same platform as a Great Crusade era SM dreadnought (you know, the ones with force fields like the Contemptor?).

Compared to SM warriors, how many are on the military division and how much  can they spare to do a whole lot of fighting? Really teaching someone how to maintain does not equal teaching someone how to fight with it. That comes from experience in real combat action which the AM are not as immersed in. Yes they will have a small group who has seen combat but again not as numerous as the SM. They can do well, the ones who have seen combat but his fellow AM who have not? Nope, they would be quite inefficient.

Yes, you've mentioned the Skitarii quite a while now and yes they are good themselves but again, they are not as many as SM and they would not be as much a threat as SM.

Well, small compared to the Imperial Guard maybe...

Approx number of SM in the Universe according to fluff: approx 1m, or half the number of skitarii that took part in demolishing the Roks near the Hemlock River on Armageddon alone.

I'm not sure why you think that they're so rare, or don't fight much, considering that they are found in just about any and every admech facility as security, and just about every forgeworld will host several regiments of them at least.  Admech techmagii seem to compete in creating the most powerful skitarii troopers, and the variety of different loadouts and enhancements is somewhat staggering.   Being that they're tasked with assisting tech priests in rooting out tech heresy and defending archeotech sites from pirates and looters as well, they're probably the most numerous armed force aligned with the Imperium besides the Imperial Guard.

I would suggest that the number of experienced skitarii troopers far outnumbers the number of SM in the universe, considering how often forge-worlds come under attack by orks. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Whoever the plot calls for.  If it's about SM the SM win gloriously.  If it's not, they usually die in the first volley (for examples of this, see Titan and Soul Drinkers, respectively).

Uh huh, but really who would you think will win out in a battle bet SM and AM?

Well, the princeps might make an impression on the SM the titan steps on, but yes, the thousand skitarii will make an impression on the other SM around, particularly with legio backup, since each legio cybernetica cataphract is built on the same platform as a Great Crusade era SM dreadnought (you know, the ones with force fields like the Contemptor?).

As you said, a hard time but doesn't mean AM will win most of the time.

Well, small compared to the Imperial Guard maybe...

Approx number of SM in the Universe according to fluff: approx 1m, or half the number of skitarii that took part in demolishing the Roks near the Hemlock River on Armageddon alone.

I'm not sure why you think that they're so rare, or don't fight much, considering that they are found in just about any and every admech facility as security, and just about every forgeworld will host several regiments of them at least.  Admech techmagii seem to compete in creating the most powerful skitarii troopers, and the variety of different loadouts and enhancements is somewhat staggering.   Being that they're tasked with assisting tech priests in rooting out tech heresy and defending archeotech sites from pirates and looters as well, they're probably the most numerous armed force aligned with the Imperium besides the Imperial Guard.

I would suggest that the number of experienced skitarii troopers far outnumbers the number of SM in the universe, considering how often forge-worlds come under attack by orks. 

Suggest but not definite. We are sure SM does a lot of fighting both on offense and defense. I would still wager SM are better since they were designed to be better from the start.