Space Marine Fleet ER

[horizon]

The Chaos fleet I was using was 2 Hades and 5 Devs. No terrain! I thought the Chaos fleet was fine, and crippled half the SCs but in return the SCs just kicked ass! 2 squadrons of SCs were BFI'd each turn and in one of those turns managed to cripple a damaged Dev each in boarding! TH's weren't too scary this time as the Devs reduced the waves to pathetic strengths.

How on earth??? That's 18 lances @ 60cm. Go abeam (14 lances) and wait. Use AC (aboats vs strike cruisers) aggresively at the early stage.



Guided torps, Baron I, you turn them 45, fly the 30cm distance. Turn 45, fly 30m. Turning around is a real long road.

[BaronIveagh]

Guided torps, Baron I, you turn them 45, fly the 30cm distance. Turn 45, fly 30m. Turning around is a real long road.

If you're waiting or it to go totally past them, sure.  I was using the 180 as an extreme example.  Usually I end up making one 45, as usually they ignore the torps if they look like a clean miss.  

Though 180s are quite possible and have hit before. Though that one is tougher.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Hi Guys,

The Chaos fleet I was using was 2 Hades and 5 Devs. No terrain! I thought the Chaos fleet was fine, and crippled half the SCs but in return the SCs just kicked ass! 2 squadrons of SCs were BFI'd each turn and in one of those turns managed to cripple a damaged Dev each in boarding! TH's weren't too scary this time as the Devs reduced the waves to pathetic strengths.

Cheers,

RayB HA  

Still not balanced. 3 Devs should be enough with the other points going to Carnages or Murders. Boarding? Really?

[Vaaish]

I'm advocating it because in fluff macrocannon projectiles are, comparatively, plentiful.  They're available via a large number of sources.

Bombardment cannons aren't the same as macrocannons though. Bombardment cannons fire magma bombs which is why they hit on 4+ and crit on 4+. Last time I checked, IN escorts and Cruisers weren't sporting those stats. I'd also wager that as a assault fleet, the marines embarked on a crusade would be working with IN ships and therefore have access to IN supply lines if not their own supply lines. Surly the marines who, by your estimation, are more than capable of building whole fleets of warships without oversight would have little trouble with the far less complex and resource intensive systems of torpedo.

You'd be amazed the number of times I've had opponents who had not played against me before pick up my fleet list and re-read it when the torps they thought they dodged turned around and nailed something.

You're changing the rules. Guided torps aren't standard and the boarding torps that Marines have are a different kettle of fish.

[BaronIveagh]

Bombardment cannons aren't the same as macrocannons though. Bombardment cannons fire magma bombs which is why they hit on 4+ and crit on 4+. Last time I checked, IN escorts and Cruisers weren't sporting those stats. I'd also wager that as a assault fleet, the marines embarked on a crusade would be working with IN ships and therefore have access to IN supply lines if not their own supply lines. Surly the marines who, by your estimation, are more than capable of building whole fleets of warships without oversight would have little trouble with the far less complex and resource intensive systems of torpedo.

The whys and werefors of that magic to hit and crit bonus are a bit murkier now, since other weapons stated to fire magma bombs are heaped in with macrocannons, including meltacannons in 'starship' size and quite a few plasma and laser weapons.  'Weapon battery' and 'macrocannon' are pretty broad categories at this point, encompassing everything from the 'standard' macrocannon to such esoteric entertainment as disruptor weapons, including entire spectrums of crap that have their own special rules outside BFG.   As are lances, really, if you get down to it.

Personally, I just file it away with the reason a Lunar's stygies pattern macrocannons don't treat the target's armor as a point lower in BFG.  

And, as I said: Dominion fleets would have no problem producing torps.  Crusade fleets, on the other hand, would find them exceedingly difficult to produce on a regular basis.  And, remember, other then regular maintenance, a ship does not have to be rebuilt in it's entirety (usually) after a battle.  Given the limited number of munitions that a given ship can carry, they would have to replenish fairly often.  It's not a matter of capability, it's a matter of available resources.  Transporting torps, or even components, as cargo is hideously risky, to the point of being a hazard to the ships around them, if you're transporting sufficient amounts to keep a Crusade fleet stocked.  

How risky?  Orks think it's a good idea to produce torps on board ship, there's that much entertainment potential.

[Vaaish]

The whys and werefors of that magic to hit and crit bonus are a bit murkier now, since other weapons stated to fire magma bombs are heaped in with macrocannons, including meltacannons in 'starship' size and quite a few plasma and laser weapons.

It's only murkier when you ignore the descriptions in BFG. Remember, it's still 100% official you can't just chuck it for something else. Remember those laser and plasma batteries are already found on a few IN ships in BFG but they don't grant the 4+ hits that the bombardment cannons do.

rusade fleets, on the other hand, would find them exceedingly difficult to produce on a regular basis.  And, remember, other then regular maintenance, a ship does not have to be rebuilt in it's entirety (usually) after a battle.  Given the limited number of munitions that a given ship can carry, they would have to replenish fairly often.  It's not a matter of capability, it's a matter of available resources.  Transporting torps, or even components, as cargo is hideously risky, to the point of being a hazard to the ships around them, if you're transporting sufficient amounts to keep a Crusade fleet stocked. 

Risky or no, someone has to do it. I'd highly doubt that the Space Marines, the masters of strategic and tactical nuance after hundreds of years of combat, would forget to bring a resupply ship on a crusade. For that matter, why wouldn't they have access to IN supply lines during a crusade either?

[fracas]

would be good to include supply ships in the game, especially for campaign
maybe +1 to reroll ordnance if within 10cm or such


but even so, deep space crusades would eventually run out of supply, even faster if the ammo ship is lost.
so not a supply ship but a manufacturum ship ... which then needs raw resources to manufacture ... which then would degrade the crusade's mission / objective run some.
would be better if you just go with energy based weapon that doesn't need to be resupplied.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

You have to realize that the reliance on consumables can be considered a built in control on SM activities as well.

Crusades would be normally planned out and resupplying of ammunition would be one of the major points in any budget discussed in such an endeavor.

Aside from which combat is not done every minute. Getting from one planet to another can take months or even years, enough for the Mechanicum units tagging along to create factories on the conquered worlds to resupply the ongoing campaign.

Resources have always been the most difficult part in any campaign which is why the initial targets are ones which would be able to supply the fighting forces their basic needs. Easier to create where you are rather than wait for resupply.

[BaronIveagh]

You have to realize that the reliance on consumables can be considered a built in control on SM activities as well.

Crusades would be normally planned out and resupplying of ammunition would be one of the major points in any budget discussed in such an endeavor.

Aside from which combat is not done every minute. Getting from one planet to another can take months or even years, enough for the Mechanicum units tagging along to create factories on the conquered worlds to resupply the ongoing campaign.

Resources have always been the most difficult part in any campaign which is why the initial targets are ones which would be able to supply the fighting forces their basic needs. Easier to create where you are rather than wait for resupply.

Hmm... The problem with supply as a built in means of control is that SM chapters with their own private star systems and (in some cases) subsectors mean that this is not universally applied.  (Example: the production facilities at Calth, which include shipyards.)

I will say that the fluff sources that discuss supply and procurement for IG and IN seem to indicate that supply is a mixed bag.  IN uses victualing ships with a scale equaling or exceeding a Emperor class battleship, however, where (and how) they get the raw food stuffs is not clear.  IG regulations seem to combine foraging and buying (or seizing) with shipments of rations from the units homeworld and soylant green. 

Hive or forge worlds seem required to produce anything more advanced then knives and lasguns, with various segmentum commands setting up arsenal worlds filled with munitions.  And then forgetting them laying around the place or having little to no idea what is stored in them. 

It's no wonder the DKoK have quartermasters that wander around stripping the dead of anything useful.  It's probably less of a supply nightmare.  In fluff at one point the Inquisition tries several times to discover how the administratum and a few other imperial organizations could possibly ever work across the Imperium: they tried several times, and despite executing dozens of adepts, the answer is always 'it doesn't'. 

As far as IN goes: it's interesting just how wildly different IN is from sector to sector, even in command structure below about 'Admiral'. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

SM with their own systems like UM would fall under the Dominion list. While they have their systems, they are still being monitored by the other organizations. How efficiently monitored? Can be bad as your example and yet might also be much better but not let on. Could also even be that like the UM, they can be open (as much as any SM can be open anyway).

Crusaders would be harder to monitor so better to limit the ammunition to one which the Munitorium can have more control. SM can still go on their crusades but only up to how long their consumables last.

[RayB HA]

I will write up a few playtests using the armada list and start a new thread.

Horizon,
18 lances, 8 of them on lock-on, firing at 2 squadrons that are braced, 2 points of damage suffered on each squadron past shields. (3 if the 'leftover' shot on one of them wasn't saved. So on 'average' one of them might get crippled, or if all the firepower went towards one squadron one SC would almost be dead. (in which case having an extra shield would do little 

BI,
I play as both sides, if there is two of us we swap sides for 2 'identical' games.

Admiral_d_Artagnan,
Carnages, really? Given that SCs have a 90* turn and have 6+ armour it makes it difficult to get a good shot, almost impossible on Lock-on.

Cheers,

RayB HA

[RCgothic]

Well I don't know what to say Ray, but your battlefield experiences are nothing like mine.

I played out the same scenario, and chaos annihilated the SCs, both times round. By the time the SCs could get into boarding range, they were damaged, braced, or both. Even with SCs ganging up on one target, the boarding actions tended to fairly even odds, with the chaos ordnance shutting the SCs down hard and finishing them off with gunnery.

I played as both sides, and both cases every SC was crippled or destroyed, with only one chaos cruiser destroyed out of both games.

[fracas]

there should be three lists with SM
1. Combined with IN ala Armageddon list, reliance on IN escorts rather than SM ones.
2. Crusade fleet with minimal reliance on weapons needing resupply, lance armed.
3. Dominion fleet with more variable SCs and SM escorts

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Well I don't know what to say Ray, but your battlefield experiences are nothing like mine.

I played out the same scenario, and chaos annihilated the SCs, both times round. By the time the SCs could get into boarding range, they were damaged, braced, or both. Even with SCs ganging up on one target, the boarding actions tended to fairly even odds, with the chaos ordnance shutting the SCs down hard and finishing them off with gunnery.

I played as both sides, and both cases every SC was crippled or destroyed, with only one chaos cruiser destroyed out of both games.

Maybe he is forgetting something with the rules? Like you I cannot see how SM with 1 shield can survive 18 long range lances.

[RCgothic]

(3 if the 'leftover' shot on one of them wasn't saved. So on 'average' one of them might get crippled, or if all the firepower went towards one squadron one SC would almost be dead. (in which case having an extra shield would do little 

It's not a case of having one SC crippled or destroyed. Those long range lances can put a point of damage on every SC over two turns of firing, or force them to brace, after which they aren't individually a threat to a line cruiser anymore.

After that point, ships can pool firepower more easily than SCs can gang up in boarding actions, and the SCs are on a losing path. A second shield helps significantly with an enemy spreading firepower around, and will help more ships survive undamaged for longer.