Space Marine Fleet ER

[fracas]

Back to the fray
1. +1 shield to strike cruisers
2. Replace 3 bombardment cannons with a lance
3. Limit torpedoes to dominion fleets
4. Improve their teleport ability, either improved ranges and or number of teleport attacks, or both.

[BaronIveagh]

Back to the fray
1. +1 shield to strike cruisers
2. Replace 3 bombardment cannons with a lance
3. Limit torpedoes to dominion fleets
4. Improve their teleport ability, either improved ranges and or number of teleport attacks, or both.

Str 2 lance for a str 3 BC would be balanced unless I misread the table.

[Sigoroth]

Back to the fray
1. +1 shield to strike cruisers
2. Replace 3 bombardment cannons with a lance
3. Limit torpedoes to dominion fleets
4. Improve their teleport ability, either improved ranges and or number of teleport attacks, or both.

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. Yes. I'd say remove some restrictions and maybe add another TP attack.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Back to the fray
1. +1 shield to strike cruisers
2. Replace 3 bombardment cannons with a lance
3. Limit torpedoes to dominion fleets
4. Improve their teleport ability, either improved ranges and or number of teleport attacks, or both.

Str 2 lance for a str 3 BC would be balanced unless I misread the table.

Oh, and how about Str 3 60 cm lances for the Battle Barge as well? And an SC with lances to the front as well as the broadsides! That would be fabulous! Oh and!...Wait for it!...Make the SO in its original incarnation legit! Awesomesauce!

If you didn't get it, the above is dripping with absolute sarcasm.

[BaronIveagh]

Yes, D'Art, at this point we all appreciate your feedback.

If you didn't get it, the above is dripping with absolute sarcasm.

Let me ask; do you hold a red cup while you post, or do you just pretend?


I've made a point to try and stay polite on this, but if you guys are really intent on dragging this into the dirt, then, by all means...

[horizon]

Come on BaronI what did you expect when suggesting 2 lances in a thread filled with people objecting to lances at all?

I think we've more or less dead-ended.  It's clear nothing I say will convince some people, and what they say is not likely to convince me.  I'll go back to blasting SM ships to confetti with my IN and Chaos fleets and the problem will correct itself magically correct itself.

This makes it come across as if the Marine fleet needs lances to win. This is absolutely untrue. And in the light of Fracas a lance would weaken them down (he mentions BC's being better).

Fracas,
1. yes
2. no
3. no
4. yes

[RCgothic]

#1. Yes.
#2. Absolute no. Never in a million years no.
#3. No torp restrictions.
#4. Yes.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Yes, D'Art, at this point we all appreciate your feedback.

If you didn't get it, the above is dripping with absolute sarcasm.

Let me ask; do you hold a red cup while you post, or do you just pretend?


I've made a point to try and stay polite on this, but if you guys are really intent on dragging this into the dirt, then, by all means...

I don't hold a red cup because I want to be sure you actually know I am being sarcastic. As for you being polite, I will give you that but if you think I am being impolite and thus want to drop being polite, then by all means you are free to do so.

[fracas]

2. Yes a single lance instead of 3 bc is weaker, but still allows the strike cruiser with a lance even when braced. The barge should have it's 8 bc replaced by 3 lances (possibly 4).

3. How would a crusading fleet resupply their torpedoes? Why would they take them without a ready resupply available? In addition, torpedoes are long range anti-ship weapons not realy within mission function for space marines. The barge should have it's torpedoes replaced with 3 bombardment cannons.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Ammunition ships.

[Vaaish]

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. yes

How would a crusading fleet resupply their torpedoes? Why would they take them without a ready resupply available? In addition, torpedoes are long range anti-ship weapons not realy within mission function for space marines.

The same way they replenish their bombardment cannon shells. You're advocating removing one weapons system because it requires resupply and replacing it with another weapon that has the same need. In addition, torpedoes suck at long range anti-ship duties since all but the most daft opponents tent to intercept them or move out of the way long before their ships are threatened by the torpedoes.

[RayB HA]

Hi Guys,

BaronIveagh has made a valid point, SMs don't usually use large fleets. That's one of the reasons I think of them as a Raiding fleet, simply because its usually small and usually on the offense. I'm not suggesting that they should be a Raiding fleet like Eldar but I do think they and CWE should have a new 'type' of fleet.

There are cases in official background where SCs have lances but these seem to be character ships or at the very least very very rare. They're not really worth putting in the list.

SM fleets could be resupplied at space stations, transports, forge ships or even BaBs!

I've played a couple of actual playtests against chaos still using the armada fleet. SMs are still winning but before I make a new thread for SM playtests I'm going to playtest some more but only against chaos and IN until SMs are sorted against them.

The Chaos fleet I was using was 2 Hades and 5 Devs. No terrain! I thought the Chaos fleet was fine, and crippled half the SCs but in return the SCs just kicked ass! 2 squadrons of SCs were BFI'd each turn and in one of those turns managed to cripple a damaged Dev each in boarding! TH's weren't too scary this time as the Devs reduced the waves to pathetic strengths.

Cheers,

RayB HA  

[BaronIveagh]

The same way they replenish their bombardment cannon shells. You're advocating removing one weapons system because it requires resupply and replacing it with another weapon that has the same need. In addition, torpedoes suck at long range anti-ship duties since all but the most daft opponents tent to intercept them or move out of the way long before their ships are threatened by the torpedoes.

I'm advocating it because in fluff macrocannon projectiles are, comparatively, plentiful.  They're available via a large number of sources.  Torps, however, are fairly rare, with forge worlds and high end hive worlds being the two locations they're readily available (relatively speaking).  While they can be acquired elsewhere, their relative rarity outside IN supply lines makes them difficult to find.

You'd be amazed the number of times I've had opponents who had not played against me before pick up my fleet list and re-read it when the torps they thought they dodged turned around and nailed something.  Guided is a wonderful upgrade, and you'd be amazed how many opponents ignore it the first time around because, like Horizon, they think I'm mad to use it.  It jerks around people's preconceptions of how to deal with torp heavy IN, since they see 'IN' but have to think more 'Tau'.  Against the same people over and over again it has little effect, but can catch an opponent in tourney by surprise.  

There are cases in official background where SCs have lances but these seem to be character ships or at the very least very very rare. They're not really worth putting in the list.

SM fleets could be resupplied at space stations, transports, forge ships or even BaBs!

I'd say rare more then character ships.

Llyan (Storm Warriors, Lance) [The Emperor's Will, Inferno]
Tigris (Storm Warriors, Lance) [The Emperor's Will, Inferno]
Malevolant (Blood Angels, probable lance) [Soul Hunter]
Aurora (Imperial Fists, Lance) [Rynns World]
Verde (Imperial Fists, Lance)[Rynn's World]
Three unnamed strike cruisers (Marines Vindicant, Lance) [Planetstrike]

BTW: make sure you actually play the SM ships.  If you do like I did in my playtest a while back during FAQ testing and play against them D'Art will claim it doesn't count. 

[RCgothic]

Considering Torpedoes are the primary weapon of a majority of IN warships, I don't think supply is going to be an issue for the comparatively few SM vessels.

[fracas]

When a fleet is on crusade I don't think resupply would be so easy. And storage space for torpedoes would be much greater than for bombardment cannon.