The only thing that I "feel" has any meaning in this area is sense. You accuse me of belligerence as if you've provided even one sound argument. Your arguments, for lack of a better word, are confused, sometimes contradictory, ill explained and generally vague as to their aim.
You say on the one hand that the SMs are an irrelevant force, due to their woeful comparative numbers, but then say that the Imperium are powerless to stop them. You say that SMs with lances aren't a threat to the might of the IN, but also that the IN are too toothless to be able to put down any rebellion. This is an oxymoron. Either they are a threat and so need to be monitored or they are not a threat and cannot resist policing. You can argue that they are a threat and the IN wants to police them but can't, OR you can argue that they aren't a threat and the IN can police them but don't care to, but you can't argue that they aren't a threat and they can't be policed.
It's clear the only part of 40k you grasp is the concept of military might.
The 'threat' of Space Marines is NOT their military ability. It's influence and tradition. The Imperium drums into it's populace from birth to worship the God Emperor, and that the Space Marines are his chosen warriors. These in turn influence decision making and policy.
Look at the interaction between the Inquisitor and the Space Marines in
Phalanx. The Inquisitor points out that, even though they refute the Inquisition has any authority over them, tradition binds them all, and is the only reason that he could stand in a room filled with so many people who had sworn blood oaths to
kill him without fear of being shot.
Consider that. It's not fear of reprisal, or concern for the might of the Inquisition, that stays their hand. It's the fact that it would break tradition.
So, again, you're asking a group of people to break tradition and hand over their weapons, which they view as sacred relics of their chapters (after all if the common bolter is such, how much more a starship weapon?) something that will be viewed and an unforgivable affront to their honor, and expecting them to go along with it.
Which leads me into....
You also have a very confused argument about the codex. You say that the only limiting power on SMs is the codex (false premise), and then you point out infractions of the codex that have not been punished and say that this means that the Imperium is unable to enforce the codex, therefore the SMs can do what they want. This is a non sequitur. The fact that the Imperium has been unable or unwilling to enforce some codex restrictions in the past does not mean that they are unable or unwilling to enforce other, more important, codex restrictions. Secondly, there is nothing to say that the only limit on SM power is the codex.
Presumably a rule book is not what stops SMs from doing whatever the hell they want, but rather the reasons why the rules were written is behind what stops them from doing whatever the hell they want. So they don't avoid warships because the codex tells them to (and therefore a chapter which doesn't follow codex can ignore the rule), they avoid using warships because of the political implications of doing so, which do not going away simply because a chapter doesn't use the rule book.
Totally wrong.
The traditions of a Chapter dictate their behavior vastly more then any other influence (including the Inquisition, much to their chagrin, or Imperial Law). Where some chapters have strong traditions of Codex compliance, there are those that only partially comply, and then there are those that don't and never have.
Chapters defy political ramifications without repercussion all the time (see Carcharodons, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Dragons, Black Templars...it keeps going but I want to move on...) as most chapters view themselves as a law unto themselves. The Dark Angels have exterminated whole worlds without giving a reason, with no noticeable repercussions.
You also say that SM rebellion isn't a cause for concern, because there have been a heap of other non-SM rebellions. This is a non sequitur. Just because there are other threats it doesn't mean that the SMs aren't a threat. The Imperium is an autocratic draconian theocracy. Justice is almost non-existent and all that matters is the rule of law, the rule of the cult of the Emperor. When someone steps out of line the powers that be tighten their fist more, even if this might be counter-productive. This is the abiding psychology of the Warhammer 40k setting. It's the archetypical grimdark setting. Not a nice place to live. So all the rebellions made by humans: planetary governors, sector commanders, IN admirals or others are handled in the same typical manner.
Wrong.
And, I might point out, that the Adeptus Astartes are not part of the Cult of the Emperor, so your assertion is already false. Very, very few chapters worship the Emperor as a God. Shall we review what happened when they tried to force Emperor worship on the Space Wolves?
And it's because that there have been other rebellions that have been
much more effective then a SM rebellion. Hell, the Ur-Council of Nova Terra pulled off what Horus couldn't and split the Imperium, and effectively held it for a thousand years before it was re-united with the Imperium in the Cataclysm of Souls (Which has never really been expanded on exactly what happened there). Gogue Vandire proved such a threat that the Ecclesiarchy is still forbidden 'men under arms'. Neither of them were Space Marines.
Space marines are different. Why? Because they're not just humans. They're super humans. They're the Nietzschean übermensch. Super humans are great for protecting humanity from itself and from other enemies (Chaos, xenos) but when you want to be protected from super humans you can't simply rely upon other super humans. If you do then you're at the mercy of these super humans, and who will protect you from them? Therefore there is a real call to action to ensure that humanity has a check on super human power. In this case it is the IN. So far this is just general psychology of power stuff. When you add to this the specific circumstances surrounding the SMs and the Horus Heresy then this call to action becomes an imperative. Before the heresy the SMs were flawless. They were the pinnacle of humanity in faith, virtue and ability. A role model to aspire to, and apparently infallible. The heresy is pretty much the original sin. The proof that the SMs can fall. A betrayal of faith and hope. On top of this they killed the Emperor, the man-god protector and light of humanity. These two specific betrayals set up a clear psychological need for the Imperium to be able to protect itself from these super humans. Add these events to the general psychology of power and the specific political setting and all other insurrections pale into insignificance. Yes, this includes the NTI. Humans rebelling just means that the Imperium needs to tighten its fist some more (as far as they're concerned). SMs rebelling means that the Imperium needs to find a way to control them, to limit their power.
Except that you overlook the fact that 'in universe' the knowledge that a Space Marine chapter can even go rogue, let alone betray the Imperium is heavily suppressed, with even the leaders of the Inquisition having only a vague idea of what happened during the heresy. Only the Space Marines themselves have any real records back that far, and even these are conflicting and contradictory.
Your entire supposition requires that such a thing is actually known, and where it falls down is that the Imperium also suppresses knowledge of those events, even from those that would actually need to know.
Further, your assertions do not match fluff. And since we've been down this road before 'well, they shouldn't have wrote that' 'You have to ignore fluff that doesn't fit (my argument)' and 'fluff does not matter' will not be accepted as valid responses, since we're examining this in the 'in universe' context. Your assertion depends on the inhabitants of the Universe in question having the same knowledge you do.
In another argument you stipulate that the IN doesn't do the quashing, but rather other SMs do. You also note that IN commanders have gone over to the rebels before. What this is meant to prove is unclear.
Then let me take a moment to clarify: the history of the Imperium has proven that SM have no trouble acquiring lance armed ships if they actually do rebel. Denying regular SM chapters from lance possession has proven ineffective at preventing rebel SM from having lances. In 10k years, someone might have caught on to that.
You seem to be saying that the IN can't beat the SMs as they either surrender or just plain aren't used. How this translates into an argument that the IN should be OK with SMs getting more powerful is unclear. In the first case, the fact that the IN haven't put down SM revolts is immaterial to the point that they should be able to. If loyalist SMs get there first and clean house then good on them. In the second case, the fact that an IN commander chooses to go over to the rebelling SM side is irrelevant because it is a choice, which is the point of the segregation of power. To spread the power so that more people have to rebel for the rebellion to be effective. If the SM ships were more powerful then the IN commander wouldn't have much of a choice. He should be able, if he's loyal, to put down the SM revolt. This is the Imperium's check on SM power.[/color]
Sig, you are totally, and perhaps deliberately, missing the point. Let me go back to one of your earlier statements: 'SMs rebelling means that the Imperium needs to find a way to control them, to limit their power.' Since the fleet was unable to prevent the Heresy, why on earth would they turn to them to control space marines afterward? It's failed not only then, but every SM rebellion of note since.
Next you say that Ultramar is a fief all its own, and that Imperial law does not apply. Apart from this being patently false it seems absurd given your earlier arguments that SMs are exempt from Imperial law anyway. You obviously mean that the Imperium is unable to enforce their views since the Ultrasmurfs are in power. Since you've previously drawn no distinction between Imperial law and its ability to enforce its views I find it somewhat amusing that you do so here, at least implicitly. However, ignoring that and moving on to the main point, you imply that should the Ultrasmurfs so choose to make lance equipped ships or even full blown warships there is not much that the Imperium could do about it, since they don't own the shipyards, etc.
Ultramar
is a fief all it's own, just as Mars is a fief all it's own. Notice that the Inquisition is prohibited from operating in Ultramar without invitation. Name another place that the Inquisition is prohibited, and generally conforms to this prohibition?
So you're essentially arguing that the IN can't stop the Ultrasmurfs from ignoring codex restrictions. The Ultrasmurfs. Ie, the biggest codex fanbois in the WH 40k universe. Even ignoring the notion that they very most likely wouldn't want to rock the boat (if you'll forgive the pun) by producing warships for SM use and the fact that they don't even need to do so since they could just make ships for the local IN over whom they'd have great influence, we're talking about the guys that are the most likely to NOT do it even if they had the desire and need. Riiight. And even ignoring all that(!) your premise is false. If the Ultrasmurfs did decide to make warships for their own use the Imperium could and very most likely would do something about it. That "something" would be to send in a massive warfleet to ensure the Ultrasmurfs returned to the fold. According to your numbers theory this would be easy to do after all ...
I agree that the Ultramarines are the most unlikely chapter to break codex, and the original SO fluff was awful. Otherwise: nice hate you have there.
That said, however, why would you go to the Ultramarines to get lances? There are dozens of shipyards in any given sector, and not all of them are controlled by IN or the Ad Mech. BFK gives a fat pile of examples, both legal and otherwise, where all sorts of ship components, including lances, may be had. What, pray tell, is to keep a SM chapter from buying a Gothic class via a front or approaching a private shipyard about refitting an SC with lance broadsides? Trust and the traditions of the chapter, and that's pretty much it. The only thing that gets regularly inspected from the outside is the quality of geneseed, and even that is considered questionable at times.
As the codex says, enforcement is unlikely at best, even if the codex was law, which it is not. IN has better things to do then worry about if a single SM ship equals theirs or not, with pirate wolfpacks and Rogue Traders strolling about with fleets rivaling the size and power of IN's own forces, up to and including privately owned battleships.
