Space Marine Fleet ER

[RayB HA]

Hello and welcome, this first post will only contain the Experimental Rules and will be updated as the topic progresses. Please leave feedback with complete opinions and even suggestions.

Cheers,

RayB HA

+++++++++++++

Space Marines ER (2011)

Leadership: +1 Leadership.

Boarding: Double Boarding Value.

Hit and Run attacks: May reroll H&R attack dice, second result stands even if worse.
Enemy Hit and Run attacks: -1 to enemy hit and run results.
Teleporter attacks: May attack ships with highier hits.

Bombardment Cannons: Gunnery Weapon hits on a  4+ rather than enemy armour value (may be fired with other gunnery weapons and resolved at the end). Causes criticals on a 4+. Hit's ordnance on a 4+.

PsyCannons: These are lances in all respects that cause criticals against Daemonships on a 4+.

Ordnance:
Thunderhawks: Assualt boats, 4+ save, 20cm speed.
Thunderhawk Anhilators: Assualt boats, Fighter, loses reroll for H&R's, 4+ save, 20cm speed.
Storm Ravens: Assault boat, 30cm speed. (Blood Angels, Grey Knights)

Torpedoes: Normal (Escorts only have normal), Boading, Barrage.

Battle Barges and Forge Ships

Venerable Battle Barge (Despoiler Battleship Model)
Battleship/12, Speed 20cm, Turns 45*, Shields 4, Armour 5+, Turrets 4
Port WB, 45cm, 12, Left
Starboard WB, 45cm, 12, Right
Port Launch bay, 1 Thunder Hawks
Starboard Launch bay, 1 Thunder Hawks
Prow Launch bay, 4 Thunder Hawks/8 Torpedoes Front
Dorsal Bombardment Cannon, 30cm, 8, L/F/R  
Notes: Can't CTNH.

Crusader Battle Barge (Emperor Battleship Model)
Battleship/12, Speed 20cm, Turns 45*, Shields 4, Armour 5+, Turrets 4
Port WB, 45cm, 6, Left
Starboard WB, 45cm, 6, Right
Port Launch bay, 3 Thunder Hawks
Starboard Launch bay, 3 Thunder Hawks
Prow Bombardment Cannon, 30cm, 6, L/F/R
Dorsal Weapons Batteries, 45cm, 6, L/F/R
Notes: May not use CTNH. Does not have sensor probes!

Battle Barge
Grand Cruiser/10, Speed 20cm, Turns 45*, Shields 3, Armour 6+, Turrets 3
Port WB, 45cm, 10, Left
Starboard WB, 45cm, 10, Right
Prow Launch bay, 4 Thunder Hawks/8 Torpedoes, Front
Dorsal Bombardment Cannon, 30cm, 6, L/F/R
Notes: You may replace the broadside weapon batteries for 30cm range Strength 8 Bombardment Cannons each side for no additional cost.

Grey Knight Battle Barge (Grey Knights)
Grand Cruiser/10, Speed 20cm, Turns 45*, Shields 3, Armour 6+, Turrets 3
Port WB, 30cm, 10, Left
Starboard WB, 30cm, 10, Right
Prow Launch bay, 4 Thunder Hawks/8 Torpedoes, Front
Dorsal Psy Cannons, 45cm, 4, Front
Notes: +1 D6 on AAF.

Forge Ship (Crusade Fleets)
Grand Cruiser/10, Speed 20cm, Turns 45*, Shields 3, Armour 5+, Turrets 3
Port WB, 60cm, 10, Left
Starboard WB, 60cm, 10, Right
Dorsal Lances, 60cm, 2, L/F/R
Notes: Increases Attack Craft limit by 4 of any type. Offers a single reroll that may only be used for Reload special orders.
Adeptus Mechanicus vessel: Has all rules for Adeptus Mechanicus and no Space Marine Rules. May not be squadroned with Battle Barges.

Cruisers
Ironclad Strike Cruiser
Cruiser/6, Speed 25cm, Turns 90*, Shields 2, Armour 6+, Turrets 2
Port Bombardment Cannons, 30cm, 3, Left
Starboard Bombardment Cannons, 30cm, 3, Right
Prow Launch bay, 1 Thunder Hawk/2 Torpedoes, Front
Dorsal Bombardment Cannons, 30cm, 3, L/F/R

Strike Cruiser
Cruiser/6, Speed 25cm, Turns 90*, Shields 1, Armour 6+, Turrets 2
Port WB, 30cm, 4, Left
Starboard WB, 30cm, 4, Right
Prow Launch bay, 2 Thunder Hawks/4 Torpedoes, Front
Dorsal Bombardment Cannons, 30cm, 3, L/F/R

Grey Knight Strike Cruiser (Grey Knights)
Cruiser/6, Speed 25cm, Turns 90*, Shields 2, Armour 6+, Turrets 2
Port WB, 30cm, 4, Left
Starboard WB, 30cm, 4, Right
Prow Launch bay, 2 Thunder Hawks/4 Torpedoes, Front
Prow PsyCannons, 30cm, 2, Front
Notes: +1D6 on AAF.

Dauntless Class Cruiser Torpedo Variant/Crusader Strike Cruiser (Crusade Fleets)

Escorts
Nova
Escort/1, Speed 30cm, Turns 90*, Shields 1, Armour 5+, Turrets 1
WB, 30cm, 1, L/F/R
Lance, 30cm, 1, L/F/R
Notes: +1 D6 on AAF.

Gladius:
Escort/1, Speed 30cm, Turns 90*, Shields 1, Armour 5+, Turrets 1
WB, 30cm, 4, L/F/R
Notes: +1 D6 on AAF.

Hunter:
Escort/1, Speed 30cm, Turns 90*, Shields 1, Armour 5+, Turrets 1
WB, 30cm, 1, L/F/R
Torpedoes, 30cm, 2, Front
Notes: +1 D6 on AAF.

Firestorm (RSV)
Sword (RSV)
Cobra (RSV)

Upgrades:
Orbital Mines and special Torpedoes: May not be taken.*(This is for fluff reasons only!)


Space Marine Fleet List
Fleet Commander
You must include a Fleet Commander to captain a capital ship in a fleet worth over 750pts. He must captain a Battle Barge over a Strike Cruiser if available.  
0-1 Master of the Fleet (Ld10).......50pts
You may buy up to 3 Fleet Commander re-rolls at 25pts each.
Terminator Assualt: You may buy an additional teleporter attack for the Master of the Fleets ship for 15pts. This follows all the normal rules for Space Marine teleporter attacks and maybe used every turn if possible.

Capital Ships
0-3 Battle Barges
You may include one Battle Barge for every 2 Cruisers in your fleet.
Battle Barge..........300pts
You may include a single Venerable or Arcane Battle Barge instead of a normal Battle Barge for every 1000pts or part thereof in your fleet.  
Venerable Battle Barge............450pts
Arcane Battle Barge...............400pts

0-10 Cruisers
Ironclad Strike Cruiser*...............160pts
*You may not include more Ironclad Strike cruisers than other Cruisers in your fleet, not including other Ironclad Strike Cruisers.
Strike Cruiser.............150pts

Escorts
Nova.............50pts
Gladius..........45pts
Hunter..........40pts
Firestorm......45pts
Sword...........40pts
Cobra...........35pts

Any Thunder Hawks maybe replaced by Thunder Hawk Annhilators at no additional cost.

Blood Angels and it's successor Chapters may take Storm Ravens 'Replacing' TH's on any of their ships fr no additional cost. Chapters invented by the player may also take Storm Ravens.

Space Marine Crusade Fleet List
Fleet Commander
You must include a Fleet Commander to captain a capital ship in a fleet worth over 750pts. He must captain a Battle Barge over a Strike Cruiser if available.  
0-1 Master of the Fleet (Ld10).......50pts
You may buy up to 3 Fleet Commander re-rolls at 25pts each.
Terminator Assualt: You may buy an additional teleporter attack for the Master of the Fleets ship for 15pts. This follows all the normal rules for Space Marine teleporter attacks and maybe used every turn if possible.

Capital Ships
0-3 Battle Barges
You may include one Battle Barge for every 3 Cruisers in you fleet.
Battle Barge..........300pts
You may include a single Forge Ship, Venerable or Crusader Battle Barge instead of a normal Battle Barge for every 1000pts or part thereof in your fleet.  
Venerable Battle Barge............450pts
Crusader Battle Barge.............400pts
Forge Ship..............250pts

0-12 Cruisers
Ironclad Strike Cruiser*...............160pts
*You may not include more Ironclad Strike cruisers than other Cruisers in your fleet, not including other Ironclad Strike Cruisers.
Strike Cruiser........................150pts
Dauntless Class Light Cruiser** (Torpedo Variant)...........120pts
**You may not have more Dauntless's in your fleet than Strike Cruisers.

Escorts
Nova.............50pts
Gladius..........45pts
Hunter..........40pts
Firestorm......45pts
Sword...........40pts
Cobra...........35pts

Any Thunder Hawks maybe replaced by Thunder Hawk Annhilators at no additional cost.

Dauntless: 'Less than equal' special rule; Dauntless's don't have +1 Leadership or Double Boarding Value. Although they still have Barrage/Boarding Torps and special H&R attack rules.


Grey Knights Fleet List
Fleet Commander
You must include a Fleet Commander to captain a capital ship in a fleet worth over 750pts. He must captain a Battle Barge over a Strike Cruiser if available.  
0-1 Master of the Fleet (Ld10).......50pts
You may buy up to 3 Fleet Commander re-rolls at 25pts each.

Capital Ships
0-3 Battle Barges
You may include one Battle Barge for every 2 Cruisers in you fleet.
Grey Knight Battle Barge..........320pts

0-10 Cruisers
Grey Knight Strike Cruiser.............170pts

Escorts
Nova.............50pts
Gladius..........45pts
Hunter..........40pts

Any Thunder Hawks maybe replaced by Thunder Hawk Annhilators at no additional cost.
Any Thunder Hawks may be replaced with Storm Ravens at no additional cost.
Grey Knight capital ships have twice the number of Teleporter attacks as if they all had Terminator Assualt.
Daemon Bane: You may reroll boarding dice against Daemon ships.

[RayB HA]

Designers Notes:

Leadership: I've reduced the SM leadership to a simple +1 modifier as their current leadership value is far too good. SM's should not have better leadership than Eldar! AM and SM ships are similar when taking the actual crew into account. As SM's can actually get Ld 10 where AM can't, this represents better captainsy. It's a very minimal effect but it's there all the same.
  
Boarding: I've changed the +2 boarding modifier to a double boarding value. This makes little difference to single boarding actions against normal cruisers, but it does however stop escorts holding their own against capitalships, or overunning other escorts. But mainly I dislike racial boarding modifiers as they are not percential; you get little extra bonus for having 2 SC's in a boarding action for instance but if you have double boarding value having the 2nd is more keenly felt.

Hit and Run attacks: I've change the +1 to H&R's to a re-roll to better represent their ability to attack choice targets. This also gives the small possibility of a fail, something I feel is needed with every weapon system. This also can't be coupled with other +1's to give a +2 which would skip a result on the critical table. This doesn't really reduce their abailty to cause 'real' damage on ships with an Engine room crit but of course mostly eliminates the possibilty of fire crits which can be a book keeping nightmare.
I allowed Teleporter attacks to target ships of greater size as SM's are equiped for the task and given the fleet is light cruiser heavy it seems needed.

PsyCannons: I've made these lance weapons so as to make single GK SC's a viable option as reserves.

Attack Craft: Thunder Hawks aren't fighters! Using them in such a way seems plain wrong. This also stops the enemy 'destroying' TH's with small salvo torpedoes, stray bombers/aboats and occassionally mines.
Anhilators aren't bombers! They are more heavily armed Thunder Hawks, still with  a reduced transport capacity. If anything they could be used as resilent fighters still with the assault boat potential!
Storm Ravens are just Assualt boats! The only thing of note is that they have SM's on board!

Torpedoes: I've taken the boarding torps away from escorts as SM's aren't a horde fleet like Orks, Nids or Chaos. This also brings the benefits to the Cobra more in line with the other 2 Imperial escorts.
Barage Bombs will be on board all Battle Barges simply because it's fluff true.
I have toyed with the idea of BB's having Barrage instead of normal torps.

Additional ships: I've added the Emperor and Dauntless in a very limited fashion the later only available to Crusade fleets. I really wanted these ships or specifically their models in the fleet as they were the original Stike Cruiser and Battle Barge models prior to release. I've added the Despoiler as well as it really is just an old Battle Barge!

Venerable Battle barges and Imperial ships: I've decided to exclude the use of other fleet ships as much as possible so as not to dilute the SM fleets character and to make the fleet list easier to balance.

Battle Barge Grand Cruiser: I've made the 'normal' Battle Barge a grand cruiser and generally made it less impressive! I've done this for many reasons, chief among them to make it more manueverable. This also makes it cheaper, easier to field and fills the gap in between light cruiser and full blown battleship without inventing anything non canon.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Yeah, you gave them access to the Dauntless but didn't limit them to the torp version. Sure, give the SM more lances whydoncha.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

As for the TH not being considered fighters, their existing rules already make them so, so I do not see the need to add another rule to clarify it further as it will complicate things. It's already a fighter so can CAP. Don't reinvent the wheel.

[Vaaish]

I'm really not fond of changing the LD marines have. They traditionally have high LD which is what the chart represents pretty well and as an elite fleet the really rely on being able to reliably pass SO. This is effectively putting them on par with IN for LD which I think will be crippling for a fleet like marines.

While the +2 isn't stackable, it is constant and it works. I see this as doing more to hurt marines as light damage quickly causes the double BV to lose effect.

I'm unsure what you are trying to do with the hit and run attacks.  This seems to make marines even better at killing Escorts since they effectively get an extra AB for each thunderhawk that hits an enemy escort and I'm not sure that's intended.

The AC seems interesting. Makes the difference between using a Thawk and an Annihilator a bit more difficult.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Nothing really difficult about it. Both are fighters. The question with them is which do you prefer to take, vanilla TH Fighter/ABs or THA Fighter/Bombers. Their secondary role maybe different but the primary role remains.

[RayB HA]

Admiral_d_Artagnan,

Dauntless: This will only be the Torp variant!

TH's: I've gotten rid of the Fighter rule from the TH, it's gone!    The CAP rule replaces it. This is a 'downgrade'. However not having TH's taken out by stray ordnance could be considered an advantage!
The Annihilator should not be a bomber, so I've used it's existence to offer the SM fleet a fighter which fits its fluff far better.

Vaaish,

Leadership: They have +1 leadership! No one has better!

Boarding: Double boarding value is a better mechanic than a modifier due to the reasons I've already mentioned. And yes it can be weaker due to damage, also supporting the better mechanic IMO. 

H&R's is a reroll. Not 2 rolls. It is ever so slightly weaker against escorts.

Cheers,

RayB HA

[Vaaish]

I believe AdMech would end up with similar LD under the proposal you have since their LD table is different and basically has a +1 built into it. Marines should have better LD than that!

I disagree it's a better mechanic because it really won't be providing anything unless you start using battlebarges or 3+ SC in a single boarding action. Using the current rules, an undamaged SC would have a +1 to the boarding results after canceling out the +1 from an enemy cruiser having a higher BV. Adding a second SC gives you +3 because of the +1 for having a higher BV modifier and the +2 for marines. Adding a third won't help unless the enemy is damaged. Under your rules in the same situation, one SC will still have the same +1 modifier, two would only give you +2 for having 2x BV, and a third would grant 3+ for having 3x BV. Unless I'm mistaken in calculating BV, you are degrading the marines ability to board and tying their capabilities more directly to how damaged their ships are. I don't see how either of those things are warranted.

I didn't intend that it was 2 rerolls. I was saying that because of the reroll you come out better against escorts. I.e. you fail to score a 4+ to kill it, you roll again giving you what, a 75% odds of killing the escort with a single AB rather than the 66% under the current rules. Because you get to reroll it essentially makes each AB equal to two since you either kill the thing or get a second dice to try against it.

[RayB HA]

Vaaish,

Why should SM have better than +1 Ld? Better than Eldar? +1 is slightly better than AM.

A full health strike cruiser will get +1 against any other full health cruiser not taking modifiers into account. This is true with double BV or a +2 boarding mod.
2 full health SC's will get +2 or +3 with Double BV but can only get +2 with a +2 BMod.
However SC's can get damaged and with double BV rather than a +2 BMod they will be weaker in a boarding action? What's wrong with this? It feels more real!

For hit and runs it depends what rules you're using, it'll either be a 3+ (with the +1) vs a 4+ with a reroll(0.66.. vs 0.75) or an auto hit vs a 2+ with a reroll. There is little in it, but it makes the SM H&R's more characterful and avoids unintentional critical affects.

I suppose from the point of view that an over kill is still just a kill a reroll is effectively 2 dice rolls.

Cheers,

RayB HA 

[Vaaish]

Why shouldn't they have better LD? they are after all extremely long lived supersoldiers that train all their lives for combat. Eldar are long lived as well, but that doesn't necessarily translate into high ld in martial pursuits outside of the aspects. High LD is necessary if you want the marines to be a scalpel so they can reliably choose the appropriate action to hit where they can best attack.

+1 is 90% the same as the AdMech leadership rolls. With your proposal you roll on the standard LD table and add one. The +1 basically gives marines the following table to roll on:

1=7, 2-3=8, 4-5=9, and 6=10

That's nearly the same as admech since their table for LD is this:

1=7, 2-3=8, 4-6=9

That means a marine ship only has better leadership than an admech ship if you roll a 6. Anything else and your the same LD as admech. You are introducing more issues by messing with the marine LD. If it really bugs you that eldar have lower LD, them give them a boost. It won't make them any less broken and it won't mess with something that works fine.

On boarding I'm working from the assumption that the most common target will be a cruiser with 8 hits and 2 turrets giving it a BV of 10 against the marines. That means with double BV 2x SC will net BV24 which grants a +2 modifier.

With what you are proposing gives the theoretical max of a +4 modifier to marines for boarding while the existing rules give a theoretical max of +6. This is excluding BM or other effects since those aren't related to the health of the ships.  Regardless of if you think it "feels" more real, it's hurting marines when they don't need adjustments although if marine ships are mostly crewed by serfs or automated, it could be argued that damage would have far less effect on the marines boarding capabilities as the primary personnel used in those assaults would be less likely to be rendered ineffective. They aren't any less marines because the ship took a hit and it's not the ship, but the marines that are doing the boarding unless I'm mistaken.

I'm not following how the reroll will make it more characterful or avoid unintentional crit effects. I'm working off the assumption that the FAQ 2010 changes are official. I don't think that marines need any more of a boost with killing escorts which is where your proposed change has the most effect.

[horizon]

Marines, with +1 is good.

With Eldar MMS we initially gave Eldar same Ld as Space Marines now have. But we changed Eldar back to +1 because it felt better and we always hoped Marines would get +1 Ld as well.

HehA!!!

For the rest ... I don't know why you are doing all of this...?!?!?

[Sigoroth]

Why shouldn't they have better LD? they are after all extremely long lived supersoldiers that train all their lives for combat. Eldar are long lived as well, but that doesn't necessarily translate into high ld in martial pursuits outside of the aspects. High LD is necessary if you want the marines to be a scalpel so they can reliably choose the appropriate action to hit where they can best attack.

Well, firstly, the Eldar have been sailing the stars since before humanity looked up at the sky. Secondly, the Eldar have much better tech and automated systems, whereas the SM rely a lot upon muscle and archaic mantras. In other words, Eldar are masters of their technology as opposed to its slave. Thirdly, the craftworld splinter of the Eldar race have been born and raised on board a ship for many generations. Fourthly, the Eldar make far greater use of celestial terrain, making them more adept at navigating the hazards of space. Fifthly, space marines train to fight all their lives, not sail. Those Eldar crewing their ships train their entire lives to sail.

The difference between the SM and IN is smaller than the difference between the SM and Eldar. To be frank, the SM aren't in the same league as Eldar and they really shouldn't get any leadership bonus at all.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Admiral_d_Artagnan,

Dauntless: This will only be the Torp variant!

Well, thank goodness.

TH's: I've gotten rid of the Fighter rule from the TH, it's gone!    The CAP rule replaces it. This is a 'downgrade'. However not having TH's taken out by stray ordnance could be considered an advantage!
The Annihilator should not be a bomber, so I've used it's existence to offer the SM fleet a fighter which fits its fluff far better.

RayB HA

Which begets the questions: were the old rules broken? If so, in what way? If not, why change it?

[RayB HA]

Hi guys,

Just realised I didn't actually mention why I was doing this! 

The problem I have with the Space Marine Fleet list is that it's boring with very few choices and has in many cases clunky rules or rules that far exceed the fluff unnecessarily.

My goal is to make an interesting space marine list with more options and in regards to Crusade fleets and the like, more Space Marine than man!
Also I'm tweaking the special rules to be more characterful while eliminating unintentional loop holes.
Obviously with all these changes not to mention stat changes the points values will have to be re-examined.

Cheers,

RayB HA

[horizon]

lol,
you do know draft 2010 for the Marines exist, right? You know the rules the HA recently (ahem) did.

Did you people actually get a response from GW?

As long as you keep lances out of the list there won't be major upsets I think... lolllerdelollz