Chaos: Close up or Long range?

[scar face]

I've just started BFG with my friends and I've decided to use the BFG revised 'Maelstrom Incusion' chaos fleet. I've heard lots of debate on the forums about whether chaos fleets should be long ranged or close up. What do you guys normally use?

My 1500pts fleet will hopefully look as following:

Warmaster
Relictor battleship
Hecate heavy cruiser
Hecate heavy cruiser
Devestation cruiser
Slaughter cruiser
Slaughter cruiser
4 Iconoclasts.

I was also thinking:

Warmaster
Despoiler battleship
Hades heavy cruiser
Devestation cruiser
Devestation cruiser
Slaughter cruiser
Slaughter cruiser
Carnage cruiser

Which one would perform better?

My opponents will be nids, orks, 9 cruiser spam marines, imperial and eldar cruiser spam.

thanks,
scar

[Plaxor]

Scar Face,

I'm glad to see some appreciation for my Maelstrom Incursion fleet. However you are building your list incorrectly. You need 1 squadron of escorts or 1 light cruiser for every cruiser you have in your list (not heavy cruiser). Also you need 2 cruisers (or light cruisers) for every heavy cruiser that you purchase.

So something comparable to what you have for your first list might be;

Relictor 360 pts (I think this ship is going to be 300-320 in an update due out later, but for now...)
Warmaster 75 +25 for additional re-roll
Hecate heavy cruiser x2 470
Slaughter Class cruiser x2 330
Heretic Class Light Cruiser x2 240

This would be an example of a mean closing list. I'd even consider putting a MoT on the Relictor for the improved weapons efficiency.


Remember that the BFG:R lists are unofficial and you will need your opponents permission to use them.

[scar face]

Ok, thanks for that (I thought the one escort per cruiser thing was a typo because no other chaos lists have it).

There is also the ships of the gods list, so would you recommend using that instead, because I don't really want to have any light cruisers or too many escorts? The ships in the gods list are more expensive however...

scar

[Plaxor]

The ships of the Gods is a Daemonship fleet. So if you want to play Daemons....

If you want to use few (i.e. no more than one squadron) of escorts or cls and still be playing 'regular' chaos then you should look at the 13th black crusade fleet.

The Maelstrom fleet is more of a pirate/renegades fleet (who prefer lighter vessels) with some CSM support.

[scar face]

The ships of the Gods is a Daemonship fleet. So if you want to play Daemons....

What do you mean by this? Are they all daemonships?

scar

[Plaxor]

Yep

[scar face]

Would that type of fleet work well (all daemonships?)

scar

[Plaxor]

In all honesty... who knows? It is far different than any other fleet in existence, and has received little playtest. Our only precedent was from old daemonships (which were poor) but with a whole fleet of them?

If you do try it out, tell me how it goes.

[RCgothic]

Chaos ships do fine at long or short range. What they don't do well is mixed in with other vessels.

Compare a Lunar to a Carnage:
#1. The Carnage can put FP18 to one side, whilst the Lunar can manage just FP12 equivalent. So without other ships to interfere, the Carnage would defeat the Lunar in a duel, regardless of the range the combat was fought at.
#2. However, the Lunar has a total all-round equivalent firepower of 33, whereas the Carnage only has FP30. So if the Lunar surrounds itself with enemy vessels, it will do more damage than a Carnage in the same situation.
#3. When the enemy is in amongst you, the Lunar has its most vulnerable aspect covered by 6+ armour, which is equivalent to 5+ armour abeam - in other words, it doesn't care that the enemy has penetrated its formation. A Carnage in the same situation is likely to get its nose kicked in.

So you see, it isn't the range that matters too much. It's the risk that at close range the enemy will be better able to exploit superior total firepower and the soft prows of the chaos ships by diving through your formation. If you can prevent the enemy getting into your formation, it doesn't matter what range you're engaging at.

[Sigoroth]

Chaos ships do fine at long or short range. What they don't do well is mixed in with other vessels.

Compare a Lunar to a Carnage:
#1. The Carnage can put FP1816 to one side, whilst the Lunar can manage just FP12 equivalent. So without other ships to interfere, the Carnage would defeat the Lunar in a duel, regardless of the range the combat was fought at.
#2. However, the Lunar has a total all-round equivalent firepower of 33, whereas the Carnage only has FP3026. So if the Lunar surrounds itself with enemy vessels, it will do more damage than a Carnage in the same situation.
#3. When the enemy is in amongst you, the Lunar has its most vulnerable aspect covered by 6+ armour, which is equivalent to 5+ armour abeam - in other words, it doesn't care that the enemy has penetrated its formation. A Carnage in the same situation is likely to get its nose kicked in.

So you see, it isn't the range that matters too much. It's the risk that at close range the enemy will be better able to exploit superior total firepower and the soft prows of the chaos ships by diving through your formation. If you can prevent the enemy getting into your formation, it doesn't matter what range you're engaging at.

[Phthisis]

Long range, definately.  Range is the only advantage the Chaos fleet has.  As a general rule, its a bad idea to get inside 30cm unless your opponent is crippled.  Even then, its best to stay on their flank so you don't get caught in a crossfire.

The real question you should be asking is whether to run an abeam fleet or a closing fleet.  So far your lists are a mish-mash of closing and abeam ships.  I tried playing abeam and just got torpedoed to death.  I now favor a closing fleet made up of a core of Murders with a Hades.  Not only does the fleet adhere to fluff, but their combo makes a great foil.  You have no reason not to LO and those lances put out a lot of damage.  It will force your opponent to make hard choices on bracing.  

[scar face]

What do you mean by ships that are abeam and closing (I know what the actual rule is , just what sort of ships do this for chaos?)

What is the best closing combination without murders, because I'm not a big fan of them.

On the same note, what's the best abeam combo?

@sigoroth: Well done, that kept the thread going... 

[Phthisis]

Abeam fleet means you travel perpendicular to their advance.  Closing means your fleet heads towards the opposing fleet.

If you don't like Murders then scrap the closing strategy.  Go abeam.
I've heard of some fleets spamming slaughters, but that might not be a good idea with your opponent list.

Carnages are the solid abeam choice, with an Acheron for added punch.  A pair of Carnages with an Acheron is a fearsome combo in a lot of situations.  Or even just 3 Carnages.  Those will pound an Ork Hulk into rubble.

[Bryantroy2003]

ive taken 7 slaughters in a 1500 point game before, turned out to be quite fun even if I did loose. Those orks never did think they could get beaten in boarding... turns out they were right.

[scar face]

How did you beat the orks is boarding? What upgrades?

scar