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Author Topic: Squadron Rules BFG:R  (Read 49067 times)

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #105 on: May 13, 2011, 09:36:50 AM »
Ok, so the following has been determined:

    [1]Hits must continue to carry over on escorts, as not doing so is a huge buff. Hits will not carry over on capital ships.
    [2]Capital ships may be picked out individually by passing a leadership test.
    [3]Capital ships may go on BFI individually.
    [4]Secondary commanders can strengthen the chain of command by allowing special orders within their squadron to continue if a command check is failed outside the squadron.

I can rewrite the squadrons section to clearly follow the above points. There are still a couple of points of contention:

A: Considering that the logical implications of [3] is that the squadron cannot take special orders as a whole if any ship is braced, I see no reason not to let ships within a squadron go on whatever special orders they want, as doing so eliminates 1 of the three reasons you would form a squadron in the first place, namely squadron leadership and reduced number of command checks.

B: What should the penalties for dropping out of formation be? There are two approaches.
1) Formally define a squadron command ship, any ship not in coherency with a part of the squadron containing the command ship may not take special orders or mass fire.
2) If any ship is not in coherency, then the entire squadron may not mass fire or go on special orders.

C: How should squadron command checks be taken? I think they should remain as is, with a squadron leadership value and one command check for all ships.  Sigoroth proposes that only the ships which would normally have passed the single squadron command check if it had applied to them personally should go on special orders - no squadron leadership.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 11:57:25 AM by RCgothic »

Offline horizon

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #106 on: May 13, 2011, 11:49:54 AM »
I still have issues with the fact a ship cannot do something 'special' if another ship is braced.
In such cases one might think the sister ships in the squadron would do something special if another of them is under siege.
Thus allow special orders if one is on BFI is logical to me.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #107 on: May 13, 2011, 02:31:47 PM »
And the other two issues?

Offline horizon

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #108 on: May 13, 2011, 07:28:56 PM »
B.
2) seems good.
1) thinking


C)
Sig's option has more realism, the other is more easier for games.
thinking

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #109 on: May 13, 2011, 07:56:18 PM »
With regard to C, I agree that Sig's option has more realism, but from a gameplay perspective I'd rather things remain as they are.

Offline Phthisis

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2011, 01:33:13 AM »
I would rather Ld tests be taken Vs highest LD in the squadron.

Comprimise?  Ships with squadronmates on BFI may RO, BFI and LO only.  Other SO are manouvering and may cause the braced ship to fall out of position and so may noy be taken.
BFI always taken on individual ship's Ld.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2011, 02:49:58 AM »
I would rather Ld tests be taken Vs highest LD in the squadron.

Comprimise?  Ships with squadronmates on BFI may RO, BFI and LO only.  Other SO are manouvering and may cause the braced ship to fall out of position and so may noy be taken.
BFI always taken on individual ship's Ld.

I can imagine circumstances where issuing movement orders to the rest  of the squadron would help the braced ship maintain formation and, for that matter, issuing movement orders would help a straggler regain coherency (AAF to catch up to the straggler, CTNH to come around to the straggler, BR to allow the straggler to catch up). However, taken altogether this is a reasonable compromise. Certainly a huge step forward from the brace one brace all current state of affairs and not so illogical as the "oh crap, a squad mate is under fire, I can't reload!" alternative.

Having said that though, in rejecting the use of the ship's own leadership against the squadron's command check roll I don't want to hear any crap about ordnance being too strong ever again! The built in weakness to ordnance is the reliance on passing RO command checks, and allowing highest leadership really goes a looong way towards obviating this weakness.

So when addressing the situation of ships being practically immune to bombers at high turret levels any fix should not be limited by whether or not there will be a minuscule increase in bomber effectiveness against 2-3 turret targets.

I think that the individual leadership with shared order and single roll is better than the "use highest leadership" system. It helps to remove the flat-lining of fleets leadership which currently occurs without making the Chain of Command system too onerous. It would also help, as I noted above, to reduce the effectiveness of ordnance in relation to direct fire ships. So I was wondering if there was anyone out there who would give it a test? I am unfortunately unable to do so for some time. I ask this out of curiosity. As for BFG:R I'm willing to use the compromise set of rules Phthisis posted.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2011, 08:09:05 AM »
I would rather Ld tests be taken Vs highest LD in the squadron.

Comprimise?  Ships with squadronmates on BFI may RO, BFI and LO only.  Other SO are manouvering and may cause the braced ship to fall out of position and so may noy be taken.
BFI always taken on individual ship's Ld.

I see no reason why other squadmates can't use whatever order they want, provided they use their own leadership to do so.

Offline horizon

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2011, 07:33:21 PM »
Could you write your idea out as it should be written as a rule?

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #114 on: May 17, 2011, 07:32:12 AM »
I see that RC has taken this section over.

I do think that damage carry-over is an all-or-nothing kind of thing. So if damage is carried over on escorts then it must be on capital ships.

It's pretty rare that damage will carry onto another capital ship anyways....

Otherwise, I do really like Sig's LD concept. Making each individual vessel pass/fail based off one LD check. However, I would ALWAYS make ships in a squadron be considered at least the leadership of any primary/secondary commanders in their squad.

Regarding B: it MUST be that the squadron cannot make command checks, as defining squadron coherency is difficult without a designated command ship. Besides, I really want to deter any idea of breaking formation with squadrons.

Regarding 3: I don't think that squadrons should be able to choose which special orders they do. (other than BFI). We could remove the clause 'Squadrons with a ship on BFI may not use special orders" which would work fine.

Squadrons should always be using the same special order. Which would force players to put vessels with similar roles in squadrons, instead of whatever (for potential leadership benefits).

Offline Taggerung

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #115 on: May 17, 2011, 08:13:47 AM »
Quote
We could remove the clause 'Squadrons with a ship on BFI may not use special orders" which would work fine.


/sigh...

I am done arguing on this point, I just won't play it that way.


Offline horizon

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #116 on: May 17, 2011, 08:24:54 AM »
heh,
If we keep one BFI rest may do nothing then I see no point in playing with squadrons. And in the rule at all.
Breaking point for me. I gave logical sense / realism reasons why as well.


Offline RCgothic

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #117 on: May 17, 2011, 11:11:15 AM »
the option plaxor is presenting is:

Ships may go on BFI individually, but only BFI. The rest of the squadron is unaffected by whatever that ship does, and may go on a different special order collectively without the braced vessel.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #118 on: May 17, 2011, 12:34:48 PM »
Basically it would mean that braced vessels would not benefit from the commands of the rest of the squadron. It would make sense that the commander was shouting out the orders, but they were still trying to recover from being braced so they couldn't perform the same. It doesn't mean that the commander would stop giving orders to the rest of his squadron!

This works out as BFI isn't done at the beginning of the turn like the other orders.

Offline horizon

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Re: Squadron Rules BFG:R
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2011, 12:38:43 PM »
I think this is workable. I like to read a written rule.