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Author Topic: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised  (Read 8217 times)

Offline afterimagedan

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Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« on: May 03, 2011, 04:26:02 AM »
BFG:R seems like it is getting close to complete and the Tyranids are the last fleet to be reworked. I would like to start up a discussion about what changes need to be made to them so we can get this show on the road.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2011, 04:29:03 AM »
This is what I posted in the flawed ships forum....

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There are a couple changes to the Tyranid Fleet I would propose. I think this would make the Tyranid fleet more appealing, balance them out a little more, and keep them from being abused (super-hives for example). I believe that, when you look at the serious downsides to the Tyranid fleet, the benefits are just not good enough to make up for them at the points you are paying for Tyranid ships.

1. Hive Ship
A. The Hive Ship seems to be a little bit weaker than more Tyranids want them to be so they are always looking to upgrade them with evolutions (needing approval by their opponent). I think the Hive Ship should have some of the most commonly taken evolutions taken written into their rules so there is no question what can be taken with or without permission. That way, the evolutions as they are now will just be considered refits and players will feel like their Hive Ships (and Tyranid Fleet in general) are powerful enough to warrant  using and not have to worry about their opponent saying no to evolutions. It could be an option written into their rules on the bottom of the Hive Ship page that says something like �Hive Ships may take 0-2 �Reinforced Carapace� and 0-1 �Extra Spore Cysts� at the cost listed in the �Evolutions of the Hive Mind� section� without an opponent�s permission.� Or, these upgrades could just be written into the profile of the hive ship and the points cost changed accordingly. This change to the Tyranid Fleet would allow Tyranid players to know that they could at least have a Hive Ship that is more like a Battleship, something very powerful like most other forces have without taking evolutions by permission.

2. Cruiser - I believe these Tyranid cruiser changes will make the Tyranid fleet as a whole much more appealing and less one-sided strategy-wise.
A. There should be an option, much like other fleets who can take Secondary Commanders, to allow Tyranid Cruisers to have a leadership which will allow them to have a smaller Synapse range. There would be something written in the Tyranid fleet page like this; �0-2 Hive Nodes. Up to two Tyranid Cruisers may purchase Hive Nodes which makes them into Synapse creatures at LD7 for +30pts each. The Tyranid Cruiser�s Synapse range is 15cm.� This would allow Tyranid players to perform well in smaller games (they are horrible under 1,000pts from the experience I have) and have the option to have smaller forces roaming the battlefield instead of always clumping together (like every other fleet can do without worrying about synapse).
B.  At this point, Tyranid Cruisers are terrible for the cost. Compare the good and bad it has against the SM Strike Cruiser or an IN Dauntless. For the points, they are almost not worth taking. Their profile is worse than pretty much all other light cruisers, they need synapse, they have spores instead of turrets and shields, and still cost around the same points-wise.
C. Tyranid Cruisers should be given the option to be light carriers (this, among other changes, will help balance their attack craft swarm �nerf.� Plaxor proposed that there may be an option for a capacity 3 launch bay in the thorax position. I agree with this notion.

3. All is lost - This is very discouraging for Tyranid players. We are supposed to have one of the better �close combat� type fleets and we have a special rule that makes boarding much worse for us. If we close in and are going to heavily board an enemy ship, they can just self destruct when they know they are going to lose. Why couldn�t they do this with Khorne Berzerkers running through the ship as well? This rule hinders Tyranids and it seems unrealistic that this option is not available for other armies who are  also heavy on the boarding side. This should be removed or balanced in some way.

4. Other Stuff
- Since the changes to make all fighers resilient, one of the benefits the Tyranid fleet has is reduced; the ability to have double fleet capacity. They already have really slow assault boats; this change hurts the Tyranid fleet and I think there should be some way to balance it with them. Fleets with much ordinance (IN, Tau, Tyranids) are going to suffer a bit from this, especially when the fleet�s focus is on attack craft and not torps; even worse when they are slower.
-Hive Mind Imperative seems completely useless, especially for the points. Maybe it can do something else?
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« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 07:18:25 AM by afterimagedan »

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2011, 07:47:03 AM »
I approve of pretty much all of these changes.

Of which evolutions can be taken, I would expect the ones for additional hits and additional spores, pointed appropriately. (Cruisers up to 2 additional hits, 1 additional spore - hives up to 4 additional hits and 2 additional spores.)

Necrons have also had little love.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 08:51:32 AM »
Necrons had quite a bit of love! They gained 3 capital ships! Doubling their previous amount, and their saves improved.

Honestly necrons will always be a very simple fleet. Sig and I actually talked about it extensively. He was very convinced that everything in necrons should cost in multiples of 25. Ended up with an interesting overall fleet.


Anyways, Dan,

I forgot to mention that I'm including cruiser-carriers as an option, and deleting all is lost. Also I think that their Ordnance should be as fast as other fleets.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 06:14:07 PM »
Awesome. I think the faster ordinance will be a good change. Any thoughts on Cruiser stat changes and points?

Offline Bryantroy2003

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2011, 06:18:07 PM »
Ive only played against the tyranids a handful of times and each one the Krakens raped my face with their tentacles and I had to disengage after killing the hive ship with NC spam in order to pull a draw. Those auto saves are a pain, but overall its a good list and I like the changes put up here. Maybe ill take a hobby knife to some of my 40k nids and make a small fleet... Nah.
You actually read this stuff?

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2011, 06:58:57 PM »
That's what I did. I had so many extra Gaunts and Genestealer bits, I had to. Plus, I'm a Tyranid at heart... I'm not mad, I'm just hungry for biomass.

Anyways, I think the faq2010 adding Bio-Plasma to Kraken was a good addition too.

Any thoughts on what the "Hive Mind Imperative" should become? Should it just be gone?

Plaxor,
With those changes you listed and a little work on the evolutions and the cruiser, I think the list will be awesome. I want to thank you again for all the work you are putting into this and for heading it up. 

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2011, 05:01:56 PM »
I seem to be behind.  What extra 3 capital ships for crons and better saves?

Also, since when are all fighters resilient?

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2011, 06:45:34 PM »
In BFG:R, after any interaction with enemy AC a fighter squadron may roll a D6 to remain in play on a 4,5 or 6. This is improved to 3,4,5 or 6 for resilient fighters. Ordnance interactions are also fought in rounds until one side or other is defeated.

The idea was to bulk up AC interactions with some dice rolling and to make fighters actually useful as escorts to both bombers and ABs.

Not in this edition, but in future editions of BFG:R, the way bombers interact with ships may be revised, in which case turret suppression would also be dropped.

Offline horizon

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2011, 10:14:05 PM »
I dislike these fighter rules. :)

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2011, 12:12:20 AM »
Really? we got the idea from your reference to 'wing commander'.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2011, 05:22:29 AM »
I've played a few games with the resilient fighter rules and I must say, I like them but im not totally sure they are necessary. I will try them out a few more times.

Offline horizon

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2011, 06:45:46 AM »
Really? we got the idea from your reference to 'wing commander'.
Yeah, where fighters can attack capital ships and destroy them.
lol. heh heh.
Good to be an inspiration.


Offline RCgothic

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2011, 08:22:33 AM »
Keep testing them out. I'm certain this fighter mechanic is better than turret suppression for giving fighters an offensive use.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Tyranid Hive Fleet:Revised
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2011, 01:42:41 PM »
So, are bombers back to the days where they could almost never do damage to a turret 5 battleship? I hope I'm missing something.