Shotgun IN. Dauntless?

[afterimagedan]

I am playing IN with a Retribution, lunars, Dictators, Armageddon, Tyrant and go in there quickly for the shotgun. No novas.

I was wondering what Dauntlesses you would suggest? I was thinking it would be good to use 2 with lance as a mopup crew for ships I've crippled or escorts who have swung behind me. Should I consider the torp version instead?

[RCgothic]

The lance version is very nearly immune to being crippled. The Torp version requires a command check, but has better synergy with the rest of your list.

[horizon]

1 Torpedo Dauntless can hurt a battleship
1 Lance Dauntless cannot

Reload is the key problem.

[afterimagedan]

The thing is, If they aren't at the front line with the bigger cruisers, wont their torps be harder to use to not hit my own guys? I guess their 90 degree turn helps a lot with that.

But, don't you think I may be going overboard with torps if I add two dauntless with torps? I mean, so far, all of my ships but the swords have torpedoes on the front and the only escort I own besides 4 swords it 7 Cobra.  Maybe the lances dauntless will balance it out a little?

[RCgothic]

You're not too ordnance dependant, (apart from the dictators you have no other ships that MUST reload to be functional) so torp variants wouldn't be too much.

On the other hand, lance variants are also very flexible and nearly immune to crippling. Either way the dauntless is a decent choice.

[afterimagedan]

So, what occasions would you guys say each different Dauntless is good for? I mean, when would it be a better idea to use the Lance variant? When using a weapon battery heavy list and need more lances? I'm starting to think the torpedo version may be better in most occasions.

[Plaxor]

The Dauntless variants are interesting, as each person prefers one over the other. RC for example really swears by the lance one, however Horizon likes the torp one.

For me it depends on the size of the game, as like Horizon said, reloading is an issue. The larger the game the lower priority reloading a dauntless is, therefore anywhere 1500+ I will usually be using a lance dauntless whilst playing IN, however smaller games I prefer the torp version.

[Sigoroth]

So, what occasions would you guys say each different Dauntless is good for? I mean, when would it be a better idea to use the Lance variant? When using a weapon battery heavy list and need more lances? I'm starting to think the torpedo version may be better in most occasions.

The torp Dauntless is often more manoeuvrable than the lance variant, because when on orders the lance Dauntless can't turn (it's orders being LO) whereas the torp Daunt can (RO). So the torp Daunt is used more as an escort hunter or a line flanker. It's strength lies in its manoeuvrability and the ability to hit just about any target. You can hunt escorts or you could use a squadron of 2 or 3 and send a large wave through the enemy line, hitting multiple ships and doing massive damage or hit large targets that direct fire ships would have a hard time against, such as BBs. The weakness of the torp Daunt however is its utter reliance upon orders. If you have a lot of higher priority ordnance ships in the fleet then chances are you'll fail a command check before coming to the Daunts. This will drastically reduce their effectiveness. They're even more useless when forced to brace. Given they've only 1 shield, 1 turret and 6 hits, pretty much any incoming fire will force them to brace, so they're very hard to use effectively.

The lance Dauntless on the other hand is both more limited and more reliable. By itself it can't hurt a BB, against escorts it's reasonable but not as good as torps (which have a greater chance of destroying at least 1 and can destroy 2 or more) and it cannot roll a line like the torp Daunt can. It does gain effectiveness from LO, but will therefore be less manoeuvrable than its counterpart. On the other hand, even if you don't get to LO because of other priorities for command checks in your fleet it still has good firepower and can at least turn, thus mitigating the lack. When crippled it will only lose 33% of its prow weaponry, as opposed to the 50% that the torp variant loses and when braced it likewise only loses 33% of its firepower compared to 50% if already loaded or 100% if not loaded for the torp Daunt.

Given the potential manoeuvrability issues, superior reliability and the fact that as direct fire ships they must deal with shields, lance Daunts are typically used to support the line. In this capacity they can actually average more hits than the torp variant. This is because shields will already be dropped by other ships, therefore all hits will be hull hits anyway and with LO we see 2.25 hits average compared to just 1.67 hits for the torp version against a 2 turret 5+ armour target. Of course, these numbers are circumstantial and there are a number of factors that can alter this calculation.

Also, as previously noted, the torp Daunt needs a clear line of fire; it can't launch from behind your lines. Since it's too vulnerable in the forefront then you really do tend to see the torp Daunt approaching obliquely from the flanks whereas it's more likely to see the lance Daunt directly supporting the line ships.

So, select your variant based upon what role you want it to perform. Bare in mind they are the same hull, and so there is a little overlap of roles.

[afterimagedan]

I appreciate your comments, everyone and I am convinced that both have their place but I have a question or two...

lance Daunts are typically used to support the line. In this capacity they can actually average more hits than the torp variant. This is because shields will already be dropped by other ships,

In the list I am hoping to run, I am hoping to torp shotgun and smash my way through with my 6+ prows. I am trying to think of how the lance dauntlesses (hoping to use 2) will help. If I do get close to the torp shotgun, I am hoping to be in range with the dauntless squad as well (assuming I will keep them back just slightly). They will be shooting with their lances, probably locked on. How will their shields be down at this point? most of the damage of that first rush will be from torps which ignore shields. Would I just partner them with the Swords I use or something? It seems to me like I would need to keep them back a bit further and use their front lances the turn later when the bigger ships have pulled forward to engage their broadsides. Is my thinking off here?

[RCgothic]

If you approach at an oblique angle it is often possible to fire one broadside at the same time as a torpedo shotgun. This also helps you turn into the centre of an enemy fleet and stay there, as opposed to going straight through and having to turn around again. In addition, battleships and battlecruisers have dorsal weapons that can fire forwards.

[afterimagedan]

Hmm, this is true. Didn't picture the approach that way at first but that it totally true. I guess, with the amount of cobras I will be using, I can leave them to the RO special orders and get some lock-on Dauntlesses.

[Sigoroth]

In the list I am hoping to run, I am hoping to torp shotgun and smash my way through with my 6+ prows. I am trying to think of how the lance dauntlesses (hoping to use 2) will help. If I do get close to the torp shotgun, I am hoping to be in range with the dauntless squad as well (assuming I will keep them back just slightly). They will be shooting with their lances, probably locked on. How will their shields be down at this point? most of the damage of that first rush will be from torps which ignore shields. Would I just partner them with the Swords I use or something? It seems to me like I would need to keep them back a bit further and use their front lances the turn later when the bigger ships have pulled forward to engage their broadsides. Is my thinking off here?

RCG is correct, but of course your angle of approach is situational. You may sometimes be locked into a headlong rush straight at their lines in order to ensure the initiative (wasting a turn manoeuvring could lose it). If this is the case and you do find yourself in this situation then I think your assessment of the lance Daunt is correct. Placing them further back to hit on the second turn helps to keep them out of range of enemy guns with their softer prows, which is desirable if you're otherwise presenting a 6+ across the line.

However, there is the matter of the forward fire of your shotgun ships, ie, dorsal lances. If you have a couple of ships with dorsal lances then it could be worth pushing the lance Daunts up further, directly behind your front lines to add their support. I would typically avoid firing at ships you intend to hit with torps. Placing a BM could result in premature detonation of one or more salvoes. So this direct fire can be relegated to shooting down fighter screens or an ancillary target, such as a flanking escort squadron. An oblique approach with the Daunts so that their primary target is in their fore while the main bullk of the enemy forces are in their side. Again it depends upon circumstances, but this is the desirable position when immediately behind your forward lines.

[horizon]

Situational, indeed.

Your perfect tactical battle plan may go to waste if your opponent pulls a surprise move, a genius tactical ploy or such a (on first sight) daft action your whole plan can be ditched.

Then the general should setup and adapt as fast as possible.

Having blind opponents (eg not knowing what fleet you will face) makes for more fun. Because most tactical doctrines we read about here are situated in an Imperial vs Chaos setup doing a simple cruiser clash setup. Some fleets can be applied to it as well (eg Orks, AdMech) others are completely different (Eldar (be it msm or mms), Necrons).

I prefer playing games in which I do not know which fleet I'll be facing.