1500 Chaos Fleet Help?

[Vaaish]

Alas, some opponents used Murders to no effect. But used Carnages to great effect.

I don't doubt that in the least; that's why the overarching point of what I've been saying is to try out different ships and play styles when you are getting into the game rather than shoehorning yourself into a single mode of play based on theoretical calculation of probability.

West: When the point is to show that the murder can be used to good effect, observations of it's effectiveness on the table are a perfectly valid means of determining that and don't require extensive background data to be presented. What's the point in presenting fifteen or twenty battle reports when I already know that the canned response will be 1) your opponent is obviously an idiot and can barely tie his own shoes or 2) Your dice are obviously from a different reality that don't follow the correct mathematical probability. Right now you and sig are so entrenched in your position that it literally does not matter what evidence is presented contrary to that viewpoint as you will always attempt to rationalize what is presented in order to justify discarding it. Everything that's posted here requires a degree of trust to accept as fact.

[Caviness]

I am the opponent that Vaaish keeps referencing.  I tried and tried to get carnages to work for me with no success.  They seem too reliant of things going right for you....

Target closing
Locked on
Close range preferred
Staying abeam

Without these set of things, the Carnage doesn't really perform very well.  In my experience even a semi-decent opponent can keep several of those things from happening for you, and hence the carnage turns into a very average (or even worthless) ship.  The murder on the other hand sacrifices some maximum possible damage (compared to the carnage) and gains more reliability.  The murder can perform well in just about any circumstance.  

The murder for me is just a much more all-rounded solid choice.  Granted one murder by itself pretty much sucks.  When you get two or more together is when they really shine.  I've lately been running the Murder/Murder/Hades squadron with devastating results (ask Vaaish about what happened to his Oberon).  

To answer the OP's question....  The fleet I prefer at the moment is....

Planet Killer
Devastation
Devastation
Murder x3

A very easy fleet to use and packs a lot of punch.  I know a lot of people on here don't like the PK or Murders, but this fleet has worked well for me so far.  I tried the standard...

Desolator
Acheron x2
Devastation x2
Carnage x2

...and it really didn't work for me.  I think it ended up being too passive for my play style.

[left of west]

West: When the point is to show that the murder can be used to good effect, observations of it's effectiveness on the table are a perfectly valid means of determining that and don't require extensive background data to be presented. What's the point in presenting fifteen or twenty battle reports when I already know that the canned response will be 1) your opponent is obviously an idiot and can barely tie his own shoes or 2) Your dice are obviously from a different reality that don't follow the correct mathematical probability. Right now you and sig are so entrenched in your position that it literally does not matter what evidence is presented contrary to that viewpoint as you will always attempt to rationalize what is presented in order to justify discarding it. Everything that's posted here requires a degree of trust to accept as fact.

Your opinion of me, here, is really unjustified, and that's true in two ways:

First, my position is not that the Murder can't possibly be used to good effect.  You're right in pointing out that if that were the point, your anecdote would be sufficient.  However, that point is, itself, not sufficient.  The question isn't whether the Murder can possibly do good things on the table.  Obviously, it can.  The point is whether it generally compares well to the Carnage--well enough to warrant suggesting it over a Carnage to the average new player who's asking for fleet-construction advice.  On that issue, your anecdote is valueless. 

So, sure.  If you imagine my position to be something other than what it is--if you construct a straw man--you can sort of make it appear as though your anecdote constitutes a reasonable refutation of my position.  Your anecdote doesn't address any of the assertions I've actually made, though, so I no--it's not really worthwhile.

Second, I'm not so set in my ways that no evidence could possibly sway me--I'm just set in my ways enough that worthless evidence won't sway me.  Some good evidence has been presented in this thread--and it did have an effect on my opinion.  Your anecdotes, though, are not good evidence, and so they have not.  Again, expecting otherwise is just foolish--even if your mistake is in imagining that I meant to be arguing some point other than what I've actually been arguing. 

[Caviness]

By the way....  The bickering in this post is fairly annoying.  A key thing yall are missing about the murder/carnage....   THEY USE THE SAME MODEL.  So switch it around and find out which you like best.  It's not like you're stuck with whatever choice you decide.  Pretty much every chaos list will have at least 2 carnage or 2 murder, so just try it both ways and see what works for you.   Part of the FUN of this game is building a fleet that fits YOU, not some other guy on a forum that sounds smart....

Example:  horizon's chaos fleet.  Most would call it terrible, but he enjoys playing it, and apparently has decent success with it.

[Vaaish]

West:
This is what I said.

No, I believe I've been trying to say that the murder is a viable alternative to the carnage(i.e. can be used just as well as the carnage), but requires a different play style. I've not been trying to say "OMG TAKE MURDERZ, CARNAGES TEH SUXXORS!!!" although my experiences say that the murders have performed better on the table than the theoretical calculations say the carnage does when used against me

that's why the overarching point of what I've been saying is to try out different ships and play styles when you are getting into the game rather than shoehorning yourself into a single mode of play based on theoretical calculation of probability.

This is what you just said:

First, my position is not that the Murder can't possibly be used to good effect.  You're right in pointing out that if that were the point, your anecdote would be sufficient.

My apologies if you feel I'm lumping you in with Sig without cause, but past discussions have followed this pattern when evidence is presented. I am pointing out that the murder can be used to good effect based on my observations and that as such it is a viable alternative to using the carnage contrary to the virulent hatred that the murder seems to inspire. It's what I've been saying over and over.

You seemed to be following a similar pattern to what I've seen from Sig in the past so I grouped you in with the explanation of why I think you are totally off base to discount experiential knowledge.

[Taggerung]

I am just starting to think the Sigiroth doesn't even play this game.

[Phthisis]

I have the same feeling.  He claims to be a veteran player but his arguments rely entirely on math and lack any context in game.  Its like he has a book but hasn't played.

[horizon]

Untrue statements on both accounts. (T&P).

[RCgothic]

Sigoroth is almost always correct in his assessments, and in this case I agree with him 100%.

[horizon]

Yup, quite a lot yes.
Though in this case I do not agree 100% since I do not think the Murder is worthless, but do acknowledge the Carnage is better.

The psychological effect of Murder-Murder-Hades having 8 lances @ 60cm, easy to lock on/use is not to be underestimated.

[RCgothic]

No, not worthless, but not as capable as the other options.

If firing at 60cm at an incoming IN fleet, those 8 locked on lances will be facing down an equivalent of 18 torpedoes coming the other way. Thanks to the closing profile, even from 60cm range the IN fleet can close enough to put them in an unavoidable position that require intercepting by fighters or the sacrifice of an escort.  Unintercepted, those torps will do more damage past shields than the lances.

Then when you go abeam you are then stuck with an inferior broadside (FP10) to the IN's FP12. Murders are inferior in every respect to their IN counterparts save speed and range. IN ships are actually more manoeuvrable thanks to their smaller minimum turn distance. Thus closing with them and throwing away all advantage is a losing equation.

The better recommendation is the Carnage, which in an abeam profile is less easy to hit with torps, less vulnerable to WB fire, andcan maintain its advantage for longer - even at close range its ability to focus fire maintains an advantage over its IN counterparts.

[left of west]

And that, really, is the point: not that the Murder is worthless garbage, but that it just isn't as good a general recommendation as the Carnage.  On that point, anecdotal evidence really doesn't constitute a compelling argument. 

[horizon]

@ RcG,
that's a bit simple.

Imperial Navy: 18 torps is 3 cruisers is 3 waves is thwarted by 3 fighters.
Imperial Navy needs to close to get in range (30cm), AAF adviced.
Imperial Navy 6+ prow is not much vs 8 lances.

10wb is indeed less then 12INeqv but 10wb has +15cm range.

[RCgothic]

But the Murders do not have the capability to deploy fighters themselves, and if they have separate carrier support, so too can the IN have carrier support and/or screening waves of torps.

AAF does not reduce the effectiveness of IN prow weaponry, which assuming a start from within 60cm (fired on by Murders), allows them to close an average 34cm to well within shotgun range with no chance of intercept. Even assuming that one of the IN ships is forced to brace/cannot get into range/is intercepted, the two other ships by themselves are rolling 10D6 after turrets against 5+ ignoring shields and hitting subsequent targets vs the Murders' 12D6eq against 4+. By themselves those 2 ships have nearly equalled the Murder's damage past shields.

Following that, the range is already 30cm, and due to the angles involved it will inevitably get closer. At such close range the murders will be outgunned and outmanoeuvred and expose their vulnerable prow to IN broadsides. The IN holds all the advantages and none of the weaknesses now.

Contrast the Carnage. An abeam profile allows it to:
Follow an oblique withdrawal, slowing the enemy rate of advance.
Lead the enemy fleet, thus slowing its advance.
Less vulnerable to torpedoes fired from beyond shotgun range.
In addition, its ability to focus its firepower means that unlike the murder, it will outgun the closing imperials until they break the line - further slowing the moment when the advantage is given up.

So the Murder gains no advantage against imperials by closing, and almost actively seeks to lose its natural advantages in doing so. The Carnage makes best use of Chaos's natural advantages and hangs on to them much longer.

I'm not saying the murder is useless - it's cheap and has reasonable range. If it hangs back in an abeam profile it has a reasonable chance of converting tis range advantage into a victory over its IN counterparts. But using the prow weaponry is asking for trouble, and if you're going to hang back the Carnage is better by miles.

And that's just against IN! Against Orks you want to be close even less than against IN. Against Eldar those lances are useless, whilst the Carnage is a born eldar-killer. Against Ad Mech, Carnage or Slaughter Chaos you are saying "yes I DO want FP16 across my 5+ prow!" whilst even against Murder-Chaos you'd be better off abeam than facing down long range WBs with your prow. Only against Necrons do long range prow lances come in useful, and you're STILL exposing your prow to Lightning Arcs.

[Sigoroth]

Only against Necrons do long range prow lances come in useful, and you're STILL exposing your prow to Lightning Arcs.

Like Eldar, Necron weaponry counts all ships as closing, so it doesn't matter what aspect is taken, as far as the gunnery table goes anyway.