1500 Chaos Fleet Help?

[horizon]

Murder is mainstay in background story.


Vaaish, the Carnage fleet can decide to stay at range and not be hit at all.

[Sigoroth]

Murder is mainstay in background story.

No doubt this accounts for much of the Murders' popularity. That and the simple attraction of long range lances (though anyone using BBB stats really should just take Devs instead). I should imagine that the purpose of veterans on forums like this should be to point out the flaws of the Murder and the recommend the actual strongest ship.

[horizon]

Hey, you know me, fielding a tooled up Flame of Asuryan with maximum re-rolls in a 1500pts battle (that's more then 1/3 on one ship).

And winning the game 'cause said ship is plain destruction to the enemy (and always has good dice, to me).

Ah... diverting.

I am not so against the Murder like you but I do acknowledge the Carnage is better. I mean, it is +10points so it should be better. Right?

[Phthisis]

The question should be 'which is better at what'?  Otherwise, why not just pick the most expensive ships because they are obviously better.  The Carnage isn't better at everything over every other ship.  Taking all Carnages makes your fleet good at what they do, but bad at what they don't.  Even you two don't take only the Carnage.

[left of west]

True enough, Pthisis, but everything the Carnage doesn't do, the Devastation does do.  You pretty much only need the two.  There are a couple of other ships that are occasionally worthy of inclusion (and you can build an entirely different type of fleet around, primarily, Slaughters) but the fact that you do need something other than Carnages isn't really an argument in favor of Murders: it's an argument in favor of Devastations, which isn't news to anyone.  

[Valhallan]

imo all you need is 1 carnage, 1 devestation, 1 acheron (squadroned with the carnage). that is the purest form of the staple of the chaos fleet, everything else just fluffs it up, or fills very specific niches.

[Vaaish]

Vaaish, the Carnage fleet can decide to stay at range and not be hit at all.

the thing is this isn't true in practice. They might want to, but you can always find a way to close.

Sigororth, whatever. You are frankly just not worth responding to at this point since you seem to be making up whatever you assume I said rather than what I actually said.

[Sigoroth]

The question should be 'which is better at what'?  Otherwise, why not just pick the most expensive ships because they are obviously better.  The Carnage isn't better at everything over every other ship.  Taking all Carnages makes your fleet good at what they do, but bad at what they don't.  Even you two don't take only the Carnage.

Agreed.

True enough, Pthisis, but everything the Carnage doesn't do, the Devastation does do.  You pretty much only need the two.  There are a couple of other ships that are occasionally worthy of inclusion (and you can build an entirely different type of fleet around, primarily, Slaughters) but the fact that you do need something other than Carnages isn't really an argument in favor of Murders: it's an argument in favor of Devastations, which isn't news to anyone. 

Agreed.

imo all you need is 1 carnage, 1 devestation, 1 acheron (squadroned with the carnage). that is the purest form of the staple of the chaos fleet, everything else just fluffs it up, or fills very specific niches.

Agreed.

Vaaish, the Carnage fleet can decide to stay at range and not be hit at all.

the thing is this isn't true in practice. They might want to, but you can always find a way to close.

I agree that there is no way to stay at range against someone who wants to close, at least not while being able to shoot. I think perhaps the point here is that if you're in a fight with two ships that both want to be abeam to shoot the one with the longer range will have the advantage by not having to close, so can stay at range. In the case of Carnage directly against a Murder, where you point out that a Murder is better against an abeam target than the Carnage is, the Carnage has range and so does not have to close. It can stay at range. The Murder does have to close, to at least 45cm, giving the Carnage the initial advantage. Then having survived that the Murder could stay at 45cm range, having the advantage over the Carnage. If the Carnage wanted to rectify the situation it would have to close to 30cm, passing advantage to the Murder (remember, small course corrections to create oblique approach angles can be countered).

So I think this is what Horizon meant. That the Carnage has the initiative and doesn't need to close (ie, can elect to stay at range). Of course, this isn't what he said and I agree with you that the Carnage cannot forcibly keep the enemy at range.

Sigoroth, whatever. You are frankly just not worth responding to at this point since you seem to be making up whatever you assume I said rather than what I actually said.

That's a little redundant, but we'll just ignore that. What I think you have said is that the Murder is a more reliable choice and that the Carnage is a niche ship. Your argument seems to rest upon the performance of the lance variant Murder abeam in the 45cm range bracket against targets using the far right-most column on the gunnery table. Your secondary argument is that lances are a more consistent form of damage.

My counter-argument is that the Carnage is easier to use (no need to even attempt to cut the range) and never has to use the right-most column except under very specific circumstances, in which case the enemy is equally effected or gives up the initiative by having to close to 45cm. Against highly armoured closing targets the Carnage drops some performance unless locked on. Soooo, at worst you're in the same spot as the opponent (Carnage mirror-match) or can pull out the same performance as the Murder (e.g., against IN, SM or Orks) or have the initiative (Carnage vs lance-Murder). So, in the worst case scenarios there's no reason to not take the Carnage.

On the other hand the Carnage has the potential to really shine, unlike the Murder. You come up against Eldar, Nids or a closing style Chaos fleet and you'll really be glad you took the Carnage. Even against one of the other fleets, since the Carnage does ok at range and out-performs the Murder as the gap between the fleets closes then it's still the ship of choice, making it an all-rounder.

Regarding the nature of the damage type, my argument is that the role of the Carnage makes its damage type apropos.

So if you think that I have misstated your position or that my counter-arguments contain some flaw, then point them out. If you think I have been too zealous in my position it is because this mistake keeps cropping up.

[Vaaish]

Ok, I'll try to clarify.

What I think you have said is that the Murder is a more reliable choice and that the Carnage is a niche ship.

No, I believe I've been trying to say that the murder is a viable alternative to the carnage(i.e. can be used just as well as the carnage), but requires a different play style. I've not been trying to say "OMG TAKE MURDERZ, CARNAGES TEH SUXXORS!!!" although my experiences say that the murders have performed better on the table than the theoretical calculations say the carnage does when used against me. In a vacuum, one on one, perhaps the carnage would perform better, but in the real world setting on the table used in conjunction with the rest of the fleet, I've not seen this to be the case.

You seem to be saying, how dare you even suggest someone take a murder as it is obviously so inferior to the carnage as to barely even warrant mention of its name.

[Sigoroth]

Ok, I'll try to clarify.

What I think you have said is that the Murder is a more reliable choice and that the Carnage is a niche ship.

No, I believe I've been trying to say that the murder is a viable alternative to the carnage(i.e. can be used just as well as the carnage), but requires a different play style. I've not been trying to say "OMG TAKE MURDERZ, CARNAGES TEH SUXXORS!!!" although my experiences say that the murders have performed better on the table than the theoretical calculations say the carnage does when used against me. In a vacuum, one on one, perhaps the carnage would perform better, but in the real world setting on the table used in conjunction with the rest of the fleet, I've not seen this to be the case.

Your personal experience is obviously irrelevant. You could say "well, sure Planet Killers are theoretically better than Slaughters, but in my experience they're not, because when I played the Planet Killer I had it pointing the wrong way and it flew off the table without getting a shot off, but when I used the Slaughter I blew up an escort, therefore Slaughter > Planet Killer."

In other words, either your experience is based upon extreme stupidity on either your part or your opponents' in respect of the Carnages usage, or you need to get your dice checked to see if they have an extra 4 in place of a 6 or your Carnages really do perform as they should but you more often observe negative results with respect to the averages and so have a skewed view of them. If there is some reason why the Carnage should have performed worse than the Murder you have not supplied it. What you are doing is tantamount to suggesting that there is not an even distribution to the results of dice rolls. So 4's will appear more often than 6's.

You seem to be saying, how dare you even suggest someone take a murder as it is obviously so inferior to the carnage as to barely even warrant mention of its name.

This is correct. No reasonable person should ever recommend the Murder as a general core ship given the advantages of the Carnage. In the few circumstances where the Murder would do more damage it is minimally more. On the other hand the Carnage can potentially do a lot more than the Murder in certain circumstances. The Murder has a glass jaw, the Carnage is resilient. The Carnage can take on all fleets and excels against some far in excess of the Murder.

[Vaaish]

In other words, either your experience is based upon extreme stupidity on either your part or your opponents' in respect of the Carnages usage, or you need to get your dice checked to see if they have an extra 4 in place of a 6 or your Carnages really do perform as they should but you more often observe negative results with respect to the averages and so have a skewed view of them.

And this is why you are incapable of useful dialog. Sig, you are very good with numbers, but things just don't get invalidated because you say so or because they don't fit your calculations. What I quoted is complete assumption based on your own beliefs as to what should or should not happen and anything that doesn't fit those parameters, regardless of source, is rationalized and chucked out the window. You do this every time something contradicts what you assume is the only possible outcome and it's the same thing as a three-year old sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!". I don't need to provide anything about the carnage when I'm talking about the murder. The point is the carnage performed in a way that wasn't very effective and my opponents effectiveness increased when he changed out to murders. That points to the murder being a useful and viable ship for my friend's play style. He's not alone either, D'Artagnan also has success using murders. Perhaps the problem isn't with the murder then or, since you've already determined the outcome and are virulently against murders, because you've never actually used one? (And even if you have, it's pretty obvious you haven't been using them "right"

If you want to have a reason why the carnage didn't perform as you expected, perhaps it has to do with me being abeam to it most of the way in and thus getting either 2 or 4 dice depending on BM and whether or not I was able maneuver so he had to shoot through gas clouds. It could be that I had a couple NC which far out-ranges him keeping him occupied at range or that my vengeance and emperor were the only targets in range when he was shooting. It could even be that he needed to maneuver and didn't lock on or had low leadership and didn't pass a command check. Actually, it's been all of those at one point or another.
 

[horizon]

Alas, some opponents used Murders to no effect. But used Carnages to great effect. (1 Carnage taking down 6 hits of an AdMech cruiser in 1 volley).

I think Carnages are better as a single ship then the Murder. The Murder needs a sister ship to make its prow lances effective.

[Phthisis]

Right on Vaash!  Glad somebody else out there noticed how Sigi sets up straw men and substitutes his own reality.  I don't agree he is good at math.  So far all I'v seen him do is 3rd grade division.
But now he is backed in a corner where he can't admit the Murder is anything but worthless or he loses the argument, and he is the only one saying the Murder is worthless.  Even others who prefer the Carnage don't back him on that.

I used to take lots of Carnages.  My first fleet had 3. I always wondered why people we so scared because they weren't performing too well.  Realized the Carnage was a bad fit for my strategy so I discovered the lance Murder variant.  It out performed my Carnage.

[horizon]

But, alas, now, FAQ2010, you can no longer take more lance-Murders then regular Murders.

And I still do not see the benefit of the lance murder in the complete fleet register. 4wb's is rubbisch as a broadside and lances come from other, more suited ships with better range.
The regular Murder is better then the lance-murder in that regard as 10wb is worth more then 2.5 times 4wb.

Three Carnages is too much.

[left of west]

Sigoroth is actually right about the personal experience thing: you might find yourself convinced that a ship is good or bad because you see it performing well or poorly on the table, but that's not good methodology.  It shouldn't be convincing to you, and you really shouldn't expect it to be convincing to anyone else.  Simply saying, "in my experience, Murders perform better than Carnages," doesn't contain nearly enough data to be useful to anyone, and while you might (might) have gathered enough data from the actual games in which those occurred for that observation to be useful to you, it isn't useful to us unless you actually present all that contextual data along with it, or we have an established faith in your observational ability (which, at this point, we have pretty good reason not to).  Expecting anyone who doesn't know you personally (and, likely, anyone who does) to take that sort of anecdote as worthwhile evidence is obviously foolish. 

Also, I basically agree that the Murder is rubbish.  Lance murder seems to be somewhat less rubbish than regular Murder, but still, if you're going to suggest a staple Chaos cruiser, the Carnage should be your go-to ship--not the Murder--and for good reason.  It's more powerful and less conflicted.