1500 Chaos Fleet Help?

[Valhallan]

well the best murder/hades arguement is admiral d's fleet which has a 'battery' of 3 murders and 1 hades (w/chaos lord iirc)... 10 lances is nothing to shun off... keep em moving 12.5 cm a turn on lock on and that's pretty deadly. you just have to distract the enemy with closer in abeam ships to draw fire.... like a carnage squadroned with an acheron....however... where is the AC gonna come from?

really you can get just as much bang (as far as lances are concerned) by taking: 3 dev's, 1 carnage, 1 acheron, 1 styx and a repulsive+ lance range w/ warmaster (this is w/ the gothic fleet list). 10 lances at 60, 5 more w/in 45, and lotsa guns, meanwhile dropping 14 ac down.

genearlly the 'abeam' fleets are just as strong, and a good deal more resilient.

[Vaaish]

Horizon, I know the statistics say that. I also know that my friend started by using the statistically better carnage for the first 5 or 10 games we played and it almost never provided any useful firepower against my fleets. A few shield hits here or there at 60cm and maybe one hull hit at 45cm was the best they got. In close, they did better but still not all that impressive and it was fairly easy to get them to brace. The fleet is pretty transparent in how it's used so it's pretty simple to plot a course to cross the T while staying mostly abeam myself.

Once he started using murders he fared a whole lot better. Besides, that fleet I posted only has 4 less total battery strength than your typical 2x carnage fleet out to 45cm and 4 lances more than your typical at the same range. At 60cm, it is true that the 2x carnage fleet has considerably more WB strength, but at that point the fleet I posted has 8 more lances.

What that breaks down to is the two carnages getting fp20 locked on giving them just enough dice to get roughly one hit past shields at 60cm on a closing 6+ prow. That's followed up by one of two things. Both Acheron are in a single squadron, or both are separate with the desolator. If it's the first one, you get fp12 which will be just enough to drop shields on another ship or maybe drop another hit from the first target. If not, then maybe they drop a shield here or there with three individual fp6 shots. Add in lances for maybe another 8 hits. So probably around 12-13 hits total.

Figuring for all 20 lances with 16 locked on, the fleet I posted should end with 14-15 hits with everything outside the devs locked on. That isn't saying carnage are complete crap, but they sure aren't the end all for a chaos fleet. Give both a try and see what works best for you regardless of what mathammer says.

[Sigoroth]

Repulsive (255), Styx (260), WM + RR + CSM/MoN(160), 5 Slaughters (825).

I wouldn't recommend this fleet...This is speaking purely if you attacking my Ork fleet because by the time you get into range (Which all the slaughters only have 30cm range, exactly where I want you), I will have around 60 torpedoes, and around 24 attack craft hitting your fleet...Those 6 attack craft you have protecting your fleet will be instantly swept away by fighta bommaz, and another 18 are going to preform bombing runs on you...then the torpedoes hit. In one round I could quite easily cripple all 5 of those cruisers, and that's not even accounting for me blasting you with all my gunz before the ordnance hits. The way I play my fleet is that I don't launch the ordnance until I know it will hit you the turn it launches, so there is no avoiding it. The best you can do is brace against it...and then I have another full turn fighting against ships that are braced and more or less useless.

And those 60 torpedeos aren't the maximum...that's an average that will be coming your way, with a maximum of 90

I actually agree with you Tag, I wouldn't recommend this fleet against an Ork fleet either. It is a very risky fleet the best of times, let alone against one that really wants to be at close range. However, I do think that it would stand a chance against you if you decided to hold to the tactics you've listed here. With the ordnance supremacy you have here your best bet would actually be to launch a screen early and take your chances with RO. This is because of the sheer speed of the Slaughter. If you hold off till shotgun range you may find the Slaughters bypassing your torps by AAFing from beyond 45cm right into your lines and doing some initial damage (sure half firepower, but at close range against abeam 5+ armour, firing 7WB + 1L one side, 4WB+1L the other for each against 1 shield ships). Then next turn they'll have a shot at your rear armour. Not a place you want a Slaughter to be. Particularly when you've got a Repulsive still bearing down on you from the front.

Sigoroth is entirely correct in that the Carnage has a more defensive posture, a more favourable tactical procedure, higher average damage, and more room for spectacular success than the lance murder. It's well worth the 10pts extra.

In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps we should do something to redress the balance between them in flawed ships. Either cut the Murder to 165pts or increase its broadside to FP12 or something.

Heh, why bother? People are already convinced the Murder is superior! I've always thought that given the extra range on the Carnage that the Murder should be 12@45cm. However, you'd have to look at the comparative value to reassess costs, as well as looking at the Hades.

Horizon, I know the statistics say that. I also know that my friend started by using the statistically better carnage for the first 5 or 10 games we played and it almost never provided any useful firepower against my fleets. A few shield hits here or there at 60cm and maybe one hull hit at 45cm was the best they got. In close, they did better but still not all that impressive and it was fairly easy to get them to brace. The fleet is pretty transparent in how it's used so it's pretty simple to plot a course to cross the T while staying mostly abeam myself.

There is no way you can cross the Carnages T while staying abeam. You will either be circling each other, ie both abeam,  or you will be closing. That's that.

Once he started using murders he fared a whole lot better. Besides, that fleet I posted only has 4 less total battery strength than your typical 2x carnage fleet out to 45cm and 4 lances more than your typical at the same range. At 60cm, it is true that the 2x carnage fleet has considerably more WB strength, but at that point the fleet I posted has 8 more lances.

What that breaks down to is the two carnages getting fp20 locked on giving them just enough dice to get roughly one hit past shields at 60cm on a closing 6+ prow. That's followed up by one of two things. Both Acheron are in a single squadron, or both are separate with the desolator. If it's the first one, you get fp12 which will be just enough to drop shields on another ship or maybe drop another hit from the first target. If not, then maybe they drop a shield here or there with three individual fp6 shots. Add in lances for maybe another 8 hits. So probably around 12-13 hits total.

So considering this fleet as a whole, rather than just the Murder/Hades comparison, then yes, at 60cm range you get an extra 3 hits against closing 6+ prow fleets. But while doing so you're presenting a closing 5+ prow. So you will take more damage. Higher damage output, higher damage intake. I fail to see how the Carnage is "fairly easy to brace" and the Murder/Hades is so much tougher to brace. At 60cm we have 20WB vs 8 lances. Since you're presenting a 5+ prow yourself then you simply cannot say that the Carnages will always be shooting at 6+ prows. When they do shoot at 6+ prows then at least they're defensible while doing so. Against closing 5+ prows (apparently common since you keep insisting on taking Murders and Hades) then the Carnages will average 5.56 hits vs the 6 hits of the 8 lances. Sod all difference.

If however we're just talking about the Murder/Carnage trade-off, which is the point of this, not whether Hades are worth their salt, then in your example of the Carnages against 6+ prows the 2 Carnages average 3 hits (which you say disparagingly) but 2 Murders in the same situation still only average 3 hits! They don't get better against enemy Murders however. Or against Tyranids. Or against Eldar. Or against defences. Or any better at 45cm ... or 30cm ... or 15cm.

But going back to that fleet, and against that enemy (6+ closing prows) and assuming that the enemy can do nothing to hurt your soft nose. The fleet you posted has more punch at 60cm, by 3 hits. Well done. Now let's come down to 45cm and see if your long range investment was worth it.

Ok, so now you pick up 4 lances from the Acherons, which by themselves brings the difference in hits down to zero. You also pick up 24 more WBs. Now assuming as we are that we're talking about 6+ prows and even assuming that the Acherons are targeting the same ship as the Carnages then we see an average of +3 hits. So, worst case scenario, the Carnage/Acheron fleet has the same average damage as the Murder/Hades fleet across the two range bands. Want to take the comparison further to 30cm? Take into account enemy long range WBs? Enemy soft targets?

Figuring for all 20 lances with 16 locked on, the fleet I posted should end with 14-15 hits with everything outside the devs locked on. That isn't saying carnage are complete crap, but they sure aren't the end all for a chaos fleet. Give both a try and see what works best for you regardless of what mathammer says.

Yeah, right, like it's so hard to figure out what happens to closing 5+ armour vs abeam 5+ armour that it has to be play tested in depth.

[Sigoroth]

Pretty much exactly what Sigoroth said:

Build your fleet around Cruisers, primarily Carnages supported by Devastations.  For example:

4 Carnages
3 Devastations

That's 1290 points.  Add a Warmaster (on one of the Devastations, which should probably squadron to share that Ld 9) and you have 110 points left to blow.  That could be, for instance, 70 points to upgrade the Warmaster's Devastation to a Styx, plus an extra re-roll, with enough points left to upgrade a Carnage to an Acheron, which would leave you with this:

540 - 3 Carnage
380 - 2 Devastation
190 - 1 Acheron
260 - 1 Styx
125 - Warmaster, extra re-roll (on styx)
(1495)

Exact same list as I posted, with the exact same reasoning behind it. Start with a core of Carnages, Devs, take compulsory Warlord, look at how many points you've got left to play with and take RR, upgrade to Styx and Acheron.

I'm really beginning to think I'm suffering from MPD and you're another account I created. 

Alternatively, you could go with:

720 - 4 Carnage
380 - 2 Devastation
300 - Desolator
100 - Warmaster
(1500)

Both would be solid, long-range, broadside fleets--which is really what Chaos does in BFG.

Yarp, another viable fleet. A touch low on AC and RRs, but with the extra firepower and survivability it's good.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

well the best murder/hades arguement is admiral d's fleet which has a 'battery' of 3 murders and 1 hades (w/chaos lord iirc)... 10 lances is nothing to shun off... keep em moving 12.5 cm a turn on lock on and that's pretty deadly. you just have to distract the enemy with closer in abeam ships to draw fire.... like a carnage squadroned with an acheron....however... where is the AC gonna come from?

I back up the 4 (Hades+3 Murders) with a Styx and 2 Devs.

[left of west]

Exact same list as I posted, with the exact same reasoning behind it. Start with a core of Carnages, Devs, take compulsory Warlord, look at how many points you've got left to play with and take RR, upgrade to Styx and Acheron.

I'm really beginning to think I'm suffering from MPD and you're another account I created. 

Yeah, actually, I guess it is.  I responded after only reading the first page, and didn't get to the post where you detailed that exact fleet.  Sorry.  Don't worry, though, you're not crazy.  I'm not you. 

Yarp, another viable fleet. A touch low on AC and RRs, but with the extra firepower and survivability it's good.

Yeah.  I'm not as big a fan of this one.  I prefer the bigger carrier group.  Still, some people like the battleships, and the Desolator's the one to take if you're going to bother. 

[Vaaish]

There is no way you can cross the Carnages T while staying abeam. You will either be circling each other, ie both abeam,  or you will be closing. That's that.

if you come in at a shallow angle and the carnage tries to say abeam and circle you can close and maintain an abeam aspect. I do this all the time. It all depends on how you position yourself.

But while doing so you're presenting a closing 5+ prow. So you will take more damage

Theoretically, yes, but since there really isn't a whole lot of 60cm WB in Tau, IN, Marines, Eldar, Orks, or Nids, you really don't have much to fear at 60cm. Everything else is lances and it doesn't matter. Basically the only time you have to worry about considerable 60cm battery strength is in a mirror match.

Carnages average 3 hits (which you say disparagingly) but 2 Murders in the same situation still only average 3 hits!

I say it disparagingly because that really isn't anything great. 60cm batteries are a crap shoot regardless of where they come from. My whole point was that the fleet puts out a considerable amount of firepower and is just as viable and effective as the "ultimate ship of doom" carnage fleet you have such high regard for; all it requires is a bit different play style. I've seen it used effectively just as I've seen carnages fall flat on their face time and again. I'm sorry that my experience doesn't meet your mathematic predictions, but that's what I've seen from facing the two ships over and over and no amount of theoretical conjecture can change that.

[Sigoroth]

well the best murder/hades arguement is admiral d's fleet which has a 'battery' of 3 murders and 1 hades (w/chaos lord iirc)... 10 lances is nothing to shun off... keep em moving 12.5 cm a turn on lock on and that's pretty deadly. you just have to distract the enemy with closer in abeam ships to draw fire.... like a carnage squadroned with an acheron....however... where is the AC gonna come from?

I back up the 4 (Hades+3 Murders) with a Styx and 2 Devs.

Yes, and I can't see Valhallan's concept of "distracting" fire from the Hades with closer abeam ships as being at all possible. Firstly, by nature, the Hades is going to be closer to the enemy than an abeam ship. Secondly, it's still just a leadership test. There's no way that I, as a player, would go zOMG!!1!one!! There's an abeam Dev nearby! Must shoot that rather than the much easier to kill and more heavily armed Hades!

Yeah, actually, I guess it is.  I responded after only reading the first page, and didn't get to the post where you detailed that exact fleet.  Sorry.  Don't worry, though, you're not crazy.  I'm not you. 

Heh, well two (apparently) different people coming to identical conclusions through identical processes independently of each other is convergent evidence of validity.

Yeah.  I'm not as big a fan of this one.  I prefer the bigger carrier group.  Still, some people like the battleships, and the Desolator's the one to take if you're going to bother. 

Well you say you're not me, and then you go and say something like this. Suspicious. 

[Sigoroth]

There is no way you can cross the Carnages T while staying abeam. You will either be circling each other, ie both abeam,  or you will be closing. That's that.

if you come in at a shallow angle and the carnage tries to say abeam and circle you can close and maintain an abeam aspect. I do this all the time. It all depends on how you position yourself.

If you're not closing on the Carnage and you're attempting to obliquely cross the T there are only 2 directions in which you can do this; to the fore or aft of the Carnage. To the fore and the Carnage will either be moving into your fore arc to get a prow shot or if you're so oblique the Carnage can turn away so you're not closing the gap at all and both are simply abeam of each other (though the Murder out of range). To the aft and you end up circling. Either way, you're not shooting your prow lances, so one must wonder why you took the Murder at all.

But while doing so you're presenting a closing 5+ prow. So you will take more damage

Theoretically, yes, but since there really isn't a whole lot of 60cm WB in Tau, IN, Marines, Eldar, Orks, or Nids, you really don't have much to fear at 60cm. Everything else is lances and it doesn't matter. Basically the only time you have to worry about considerable 60cm battery strength is in a mirror match.

What? So you only have to worry about 60cm guns? Once you hit 45cm you're magically immune to them? You can somehow shoot at 60cm range without closing and the enemy can't close in return? Nids have 45cm range prow WBs that'll fuck you up. Tau have potentially range-ignoring 45cm forward guns. The IN have both the Oberon and Emperor, two very good stand-off carriers. Marines have great speed and bombardment cannons for which the only defence is to be abeam! You REALLY don't want to be closing the distance against them! As for Orks, you're moving directly into their torpedoes as well as cutting the distance (staying away is good!) and when they finally do get close you'll be closing, making those heavy gunz actually worthwhile! With Eldar aspect does not matter to them, they'll always count you as closing, but the Carnage has far better weaponry to deal with them! And then, on top of all that, you do have to worry about "mirror matches". Chaos is one of the most common fleets. Why would you make your fleet weak to one of the most common fleets around?

Carnages average 3 hits (which you say disparagingly) but 2 Murders in the same situation still only average 3 hits!

I say it disparagingly because that really isn't anything great. 60cm batteries are a crap shoot regardless of where they come from. My whole point was that the fleet puts out a considerable amount of firepower and is just as viable and effective as the "ultimate ship of doom" carnage fleet you have such high regard for; all it requires is a bit different play style. I've seen it used effectively just as I've seen carnages fall flat on their face time and again.

If the 3 hits from the Carnages "isn't that great" then how are the 3 hits from Murders any better? You think that the Murder is just as effective because it matches the Carnage in worst case scenario? What about the Carnage being twice as good in best case scenario?

I'm sorry that my experience doesn't meet your mathematic predictions, but that's what I've seen from facing the two ships over and over and no amount of theoretical conjecture can change that.

What you should be sorry about is letting your anecdotal experience blind you to the obvious.

Really, people should feel ashamed of themselves actually recommending Murders to new players. Not only is it much higher risk for extremely low reward (where there's reward at all) but the Carnage is much easier to use to full effect. You don't need to worry about working twice as hard to make it worthwhile taking.

[Vaaish]

If you're not closing on the Carnage and you're attempting to obliquely cross the T there are only 2 directions in which you can do this; to the fore or aft of the Carnage. To the fore and the Carnage will either be moving into your fore arc to get a prow shot or if you're so oblique the Carnage can turn away so you're not closing the gap at all and both are simply abeam of each other (though the Murder out of range). To the aft and you end up circling. Either way, you're not shooting your prow lances, so one must wonder why you took the Murder at all.

Um... did I say I was doing this with a murder? I'm pretty sure that I mentioned I typically play IN and do this to the chaos player using the carnage. Which makes perfect sense since most of my weapons are port/starboard and my prow torpedoes just need to go off in the general direction.

What? So you only have to worry about 60cm guns? Once you hit 45cm you're magically immune to them? You can somehow shoot at 60cm range without closing and the enemy can't close in return? Nids have 45cm range prow WBs that'll fuck you up. Tau have potentially range-ignoring 45cm forward guns. The IN have both the Oberon and Emperor, two very good stand-off carriers. Marines have great speed and bombardment cannons for which the only defence is to be abeam! You REALLY don't want to be closing the distance against them! As for Orks, you're moving directly into their torpedoes as well as cutting the distance (staying away is good!) and when they finally do get close you'll be closing, making those heavy gunz actually worthwhile! With Eldar aspect does not matter to them, they'll always count you as closing, but the Carnage has far better weaponry to deal with them! And then, on top of all that, you do have to worry about "mirror matches". Chaos is one of the most common fleets. Why would you make your fleet weak to one of the most common fleets around?

Stop being dense. If you are closing at 60cm and your opponents are shooting 45cm batteries, it doesn't matter if your prow armor is 2+ since they aren't even getting to shoot you. I.E. it doesn't matter if you are closing at 60cm. You do realize that the forward arc on a shipis 45` right? You don't have to point right at a ship to still be in the forward arc. Obviously once you come in range you will have to account for enemy fire; I didn't think I needed to spell this out for you. (speaking of the oberon, I had one hulked in a single turn of shooting with 2 murders, a hades, and a repulsive... true, it was mainly due to a subplot that kept me from using SO for three turns so no BFI, but that's still considerably firepower from >45cm).

If the 3 hits from the Carnages "isn't that great" then how are the 3 hits from Murders any better? You think that the Murder is just as effective because it matches the Carnage in worst case scenario? What about the Carnage being twice as good in best case scenario?

What part of "just as viable" reads as better? And what's best case at 60cm? Shooting at something abeam? I've seen both of these fleets use and both ships taken many many times. The result has almost always seen the murder doing more than the carnage. TO account for personal preference and play style variations, I say both are probably just as effective and useful although they are different ways of employing the chaos fleet.

What you should be sorry about is letting your anecdotal experience blind you to the obvious.

You make me laugh Sig, really. So, you are really saying that real world experience and observation is only good if it supports your position? Last I checked a huge part of science was based on OBSERVATION. Would you really say that if a theoretical prediction doesn't match the observed result the theoretical prediction is infallible?

And for the record, I'm suggesting that new players try more than just one thing before they settle into a fleet. Either is viable and both fit different play styles.

[Valhallan]

Theoretically, yes, but since there really isn't a whole lot of 60cm WB in Tau, IN, Marines, Eldar, Orks, or Nids, you really don't have much to fear at 60cm. Everything else is lances and it doesn't matter. Basically the only time you have to worry about considerable 60cm battery strength is in a mirror match.

says the guy who fields an empy and two vengances in an IN fleet.... hehe, sorry I couldn't resist...

well the best murder/hades arguement is admiral d's fleet which has a 'battery' of 3 murders and 1 hades (w/chaos lord iirc)... 10 lances is nothing to shun off... keep em moving 12.5 cm a turn on lock on and that's pretty deadly. you just have to distract the enemy with closer in abeam ships to draw fire.... like a carnage squadroned with an acheron....however... where is the AC gonna come from?

I back up the 4 (Hades+3 Murders) with a Styx and 2 Devs.

Yes, and I can't see Valhallan's concept of "distracting" fire from the Hades with closer abeam ships as being at all possible. Firstly, by nature, the Hades is going to be closer to the enemy than an abeam ship. Secondly, it's still just a leadership test. There's no way that I, as a player, would go zOMG!!1!one!! There's an abeam Dev nearby! Must shoot that rather than the much easier to kill and more heavily armed Hades!

i was thinking about a carny and an acheron... not some silly dev... but hey, this is exactly why i *don't* use murders/hades

[Vaaish]

says the guy who fields an empy and two vengances in an IN fleet.... hehe, sorry I couldn't resist...

no, that's fair. I freely admit that I tend to play fairly atypical IN lists, but hey, they work!

[horizon]

Hey Vaaish,
aren't you forgetting that if a fleet is prow on there is only a maximum number of two turns the Chaos fleet is firing above 45cm?

In lots of cases Chaos prow on gets on +45cm shot, then the enemy closes within 45cm and starts harassing the vulnerable 5+ prows.

[Vaaish]

Horizon, no, I do realize that they only get two free turns of shooting before they get within 45cm. At that point you have to choose between going abeam and losing out on the prow lances or going prow on and taking the damage. One one one, that gives the carnage a 6wb edge, but calculated for the entire fleet, you lose around 4 wb going abeam from a carnage fleet.

[Sigoroth]

Um... did I say I was doing this with a murder? I'm pretty sure that I mentioned I typically play IN and do this to the chaos player using the carnage. Which makes perfect sense since most of my weapons are port/starboard and my prow torpedoes just need to go off in the general direction.

You said that you would close to 45cm range with the Murder, and that you could prevent the enemy from shooting at your soft prow. The response is the same whatever fleet you're trying to use to accomplish this miracle.

Stop being dense. If you are closing at 60cm and your opponents are shooting 45cm batteries, it doesn't matter if your prow armor is 2+ since they aren't even getting to shoot you. I.E. it doesn't matter if you are closing at 60cm. You do realize that the forward arc on a shipis 45` right? You don't have to point right at a ship to still be in the forward arc. Obviously once you come in range you will have to account for enemy fire; I didn't think I needed to spell this out for you. (speaking of the oberon, I had one hulked in a single turn of shooting with 2 murders, a hades, and a repulsive... true, it was mainly due to a subplot that kept me from using SO for three turns so no BFI, but that's still considerably firepower from >45cm).

Me being dense!? You act as if the enemy has no movement phase. You can just get to dead on 60cm from the enemy and they can't move 15 cm towards you before they fire their 45cm forward facing guns. You don't just have to worry about abeam 60cm guns, you also have to worry about forward 45cm guns.

What part of "just as viable" reads as better?

The part where you recommend the Murder.

And what's best case at 60cm? Shooting at something abeam? I've seen both of these fleets use and both ships taken many many times. The result has almost always seen the murder doing more than the carnage. TO account for personal preference and play style variations, I say both are probably just as effective and useful although they are different ways of employing the chaos fleet.

I call bullshit. There's no way that a Murder can match a Carnage under optimal conditions. And optimal conditions constitute using the defences column against any armour value or the next best column against 5+ armour or worse. I've crossed the opponents T to the aft at close range with Carnages several times, sometimes on LO and sometimes with the double range shift. The damage they put out far surpasses that of a regular Murder, let alone the gimped lance-variant.

You make me laugh Sig, really. So, you are really saying that real world experience and observation is only good if it supports your position? Last I checked a huge part of science was based on OBSERVATION. Would you really say that if a theoretical prediction doesn't match the observed result the theoretical prediction is infallible?

No, what I'm saying is that your anecdotal evidence isn't worth the paper it's written on. You only observe what you want to observe. You haven't collected data objectively or analysed why the Carnage performed less than expected. You have not provided a reason why the Carnage is worth less than the Murder. Without a counter-theory then it's all just RNG and therefore your anecdotal evidence is utterly worthless and you should not pollute these forums with it.

And for the record, I'm suggesting that new players try more than just one thing before they settle into a fleet. Either is viable and both fit different play styles.

You suggested the Carnage as a niche ship and the Murder as the mainstay. This is bad advice. The Carnage is the mainstay and the Murder is surpassed in all ways by other options in the fleet.