1500 Chaos Fleet Help?

[Sigoroth]

Ummm Phthisis and Sigiroth, thanks for your ideas but please take your argument somwhere approriate.  I'm really not one for stats, and the way my dice go stats are irrelevant.  All I'm after is a basic list that isn't going to suck so that I can get into the game with as little faffing about as possible.

That's a shame, because the entire game is based upon statistical probability. Well, if all you're interested in is how the ships themselves play, then for Chaos any ship that can go abeam to do its job is good. Apart from that, range is good. So, the Styx is in itself a good ship. It wastes no off-side firepower and has good reach as well as giving a lot of AC. Its high cost means that even with an upgraded Repulsive on the table it will be your flag, which means you get the leadership bonus on your carrier, which is where it should be.

I say again, have your argument about relative ships somewhere else!.

I will say what I want where I want.

Repulsive (255), Styx (260), WM + RR + CSM/MoN(160), 5 Slaughters (825).  Sounds pretty interesting, would it hurt the list much to drop a Slaughter and take some escorts?

I think it would. Generally Chaos escorts aren't worth their cost. On top of which they all have a design flaw. The Iconoclasts are weak, with 4+ armour and only mediocre 3 WB firepower. This would be okay (just okay, not strong) if they were only 25 pts, but at 30pts each they are too weak. The Idolator is very expensive, paying for its long range guns, but 60% of its firepower is locked forward and only 30cm range. So if you take advantage of the range you're paying way too much and if you're using all its firepower you're still paying 5 pts more than the IN analogue. So you're basically paying 5 pts per ship (30 pts over a full squadron) for incidental usage of range. That is, 5 pts more than an already sucky alternative. The Infidel is probably the best of a bad bunch, but as a torp boat it wastes too much firepower (and hence points) in its direct weaponry. This isn't terrible, as you can use that weaponry and can at least be abeam to do so, but you'll usually be on RO orders rather than LO, meaning that as gunships they're worth less than half of a Sword (35 pts). Further, at 40 pts each having only 1 turret is a severe liability.

However, it should be noted that the fleet list I've given here is a very risky one. It depends upon getting to 30cm range with the bulk of the fleet. The Rep can function at 45cm but would benefit from getting to at least 30cm. Only the Styx can stay back, but then it'll likely be unable to adequately protect the fleet from enemy AC so even it will want to close somewhat. The problem with all this is that it makes your ships really easy to blow up. A typical Carnage based fleet would have little problems against this sort of fleet.

[Sigoroth]

You will also have a problem the Repulsive will end up quite alone due to much slower speed then Slaughters.

This won't be a problem. The enemy will have a bunch of Slaughters on their doorsteps to worry about. Would you shoot at the faster and more fragile ships bearing down or the slightly more powerful and survivable one that isn't yet a worry? The only thing you'd need worry about is encircling escorts, but the Styx would be behind/near the Repulsive defending it against such a tactic. The biggest problem isn't that the Repulsive is vulnerable to such a tactic, but rather that the Styx is. It is more fragile than the Rep and is the fleets only defence against AC. If escorts circled and took that out then the fleet would be in trouble. But it's a glass cannon type fleet. It'll either storm the enemy convincingly or fall apart.

[Taggerung]

Repulsive (255), Styx (260), WM + RR + CSM/MoN(160), 5 Slaughters (825).

I wouldn't recommend this fleet...This is speaking purely if you attacking my Ork fleet because by the time you get into range (Which all the slaughters only have 30cm range, exactly where I want you), I will have around 60 torpedoes, and around 24 attack craft hitting your fleet...Those 6 attack craft you have protecting your fleet will be instantly swept away by fighta bommaz, and another 18 are going to preform bombing runs on you...then the torpedoes hit. In one round I could quite easily cripple all 5 of those cruisers, and that's not even accounting for me blasting you with all my gunz before the ordnance hits. The way I play my fleet is that I don't launch the ordnance until I know it will hit you the turn it launches, so there is no avoiding it. The best you can do is brace against it...and then I have another full turn fighting against ships that are braced and more or less useless.

And those 60 torpedeos aren't the maximum...that's an average that will be coming your way, with a maximum of 90

[Martini Henrie]

Thanks for pointing that out Taggerung, it's been that long since I last played that this sort of advice is invaluble.  On reflection, I'm not going to spam one ship type, so a pair of Slaughters is it plus what ever people recommend are usefull supliments to these.  I'm also pretty much going to stick with the Repulsive and Styx+WM+RR/MoN.

Sigoroth, I undestand that games like this are deeply involed with stats but I don't want to obsess over that part of the game.  I'm just taking part in a 'beer and pretzels' style league between friends because we are getting bored with 40k and are each starting new fantasy armies, which will take some time.  I apreciate that you will post what you want, where you want, but continuing what seems to be a private argument on a thread like this is of no value to the OP (who I have subsumed, sorry) or me.

Again thanks for the valuable insights posted.

[Taggerung]

Just wondering, have you checked out the flawed fleets? My gaming group is using these now and I feel it's a much better way to play (especially after the new updates...the ork clanz document is terrible)


If you have this is the fleet I would run...with using the repulsive/styx (Point costs represent the flawed lists fyi)


Repulsive (245)
Styx (260), WM + RR + CSM/MoN(135)
2 x Devastations (380)
2 x Carnage (360)
3 x Infidels (120)

1500 pts

This gives you everything, lances, batteries, 14 AC, and even 6 torps...seems like a pretty solid all comers to start with.

[Martini Henrie]

Not checked the flawed ship lists yet, but if they are better then I can see the group of us using them. 

[Phthisis]

God, Sigi, youre an arrogant and dense prick.  Any idiot can calculate mean average hits as you are.  How dare you call me an idiot and suggest I'm retarded!  Stop trolling and learn to act like a human being!
Youre only calculating average hits but completely ignoring how those hits are distributed amongst your rolls.  When you only have 8 or so opportunities to roll in a game, the incidence probability of specific results has a bigger impact on the game and your strategy than mean average. 
Out of respect for others, a trait which you have demonstrated a lack of, I won't continue this argument here.  But this will continue in another thread once either you or I start one specifically for this purpose. 

@Taggerung
Why the Repulsive?  It seems to lack synergy with the rest of the fleet.  It's a line breaker that needs to close and broadside at close range to be most effective.  Everything else is an abeam gunline ship, which the Repulsive neither has the armament or speed to do.
Also, why the MoN on the Styx?  Just curious.

[Taggerung]

Because of this statement here...

I'm also pretty much going to stick with the Repulsive and Styx+WM+RR/MoN.

Those are his choices, not mine.

[Plaxor]

Pthisis stop fighting with Sig.

The Murder Vs. Carnage debate is really a matter of preference. Some people like one over the other, depending on how they like to play.

I like playing with the Murder more, because the vessel is described as more common, but I do think that the Carnage has an edge due to its rotating prow weapons.

Honestly the lance Murder variant is pretty decent. Especially if you're looking for a way to get more lances, the standard doesn't provide much in comparison to the Carnage.

There is something to note about potential over averages. Look at the two types of Dauntlesses, the lance Dauntless mathematically will perform better than the Torp one.  However it is unlikely that the Lance D will do internal damage to a ship, however a Torp one almost always will. Even against ships that the Lance one could not.

In my document the Repulsive is costed at 245, because it has the shield upgrade included automatically, as it is forced to have a large base.

Martini, the link is in my signature. I'm still working on them, but I should be done in 2-3 months.

[horizon]

Honestly the lance Murder variant is pretty decent. Especially if you're looking for a way to get more lances, the standard doesn't provide much in comparison to the Carnage.

More lances in a Chaos fleet?

Tell me, which Chaos cruiser, heavy cruiser or battleship does not have lances? Carnage!

No, number of lances ain't a worry in the Chaos fleet.

[Vaaish]

Just to poke at sig and add another plug for the the murder/hades combo, here's a fleet I've been toying with especially after seeing how the murders work for the Chaos player I do most of my games against.

2x murder
2x devastation
2x hades
desolator

[horizon]

Hi Vaaish,

A fleet Desolator, 2x Devestation, 2x Acheron, 2x Carnage
vs
B fleet Desolator, 2x Devestation, 2x Hades, 2x Murder

Both fleets: 9 torps + 8 launch bays

focussed fp prow on:

A : 18 wb
B : 6 wb + 12 lances
--> B wins

focussed fp broadside
46-60cm
A : 26 wb + 12 lances
B : 6wb + 12 lances

31-45cm
A : 50 wb + 16 lances
B : 46 wb + 12 lances

0-30cm
A : 62 wb + 16 lances
B : 58 wb + 12 lances

That's clear. Fleet A wins in all ranges firing broadsides.

Now: fleet B has prow on at 60cm : 6wb lances + 12 lances. The same as it can do as a broadside.
Fleet A has more when being broadside at 60cm (26wb + 12lances)
Fleet B can only get better use if Hades/Murders are able to fire prow & broadside together. A difficult job.

[RCgothic]

Sigoroth is entirely correct in that the Carnage has a more defensive posture, a more favourable tactical procedure, higher average damage, and more room for spectacular success than the lance murder. It's well worth the 10pts extra.

In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps we should do something to redress the balance between them in flawed ships. Either cut the Murder to 165pts or increase its broadside to FP12 or something.

[Phthisis]

Playing prow on with a bunch of lances has some strategic advantages.  
For example, Orks or Imperials with 6+ prows and torpedos generally deploy facing straight at you and try to launch as much as they can as they close.  12 lances fore without need for course correction can LO and potentially cripple a ship a turn.   As long as you have enough fighters to deal with long range torp fire, this can be a strong incentive for the enemy fleet to abandon preliminary torpedo bombardment and get to broadsides.    This is leverage you don't have with an abeam gunline.  Torps don't care which way your ship is facing.
I think you also have a bit more control over how those broadsides happen initially.  You don't have to turn to hit weaker armor so you can LO.  You also can get within 15cm more reliably.  So yeah, less broadside weaponry, but you can likely get more out of them for a couple turns.  

[left of west]

Pretty much exactly what Sigoroth said:

Build your fleet around Cruisers, primarily Carnages supported by Devastations.  For example:

4 Carnages
3 Devastations

That's 1290 points.  Add a Warmaster (on one of the Devastations, which should probably squadron to share that Ld 9) and you have 110 points left to blow.  That could be, for instance, 70 points to upgrade the Warmaster's Devastation to a Styx, plus an extra re-roll, with enough points left to upgrade a Carnage to an Acheron, which would leave you with this:

540 - 3 Carnage
380 - 2 Devastation
190 - 1 Acheron
260 - 1 Styx
125 - Warmaster, extra re-roll (on styx)
(1495)

Alternatively, you could go with:

720 - 4 Carnage
380 - 2 Devastation
300 - Desolator
100 - Warmaster
(1500)

Both would be solid, long-range, broadside fleets--which is really what Chaos does in BFG.