Caestus Assault Ram

[BaronIveagh]

I dunno, if I'm reading this right, the ram does some rather extensive damage on entry, compared to, say, the Thawk or Shark.

Maybe have it with a rule where it can be used as an aboat or a bomber (but not a torp bomber) as that might be a comparable amount of damage?  Just a thought. 

[Zelnik]

I really do not see how such a small craft in comparison can do more damage then a thunderhawk or a shark. I think we should mark that off as "CRAZY TALK"

Or you could say that the extra trauma it causes brings it up to normal assault boat level.

I have seen the Caestus... its not much bigger then a land raider, and let's not forget our scale here.

[BaronIveagh]

I really do not see how such a small craft in comparison can do more damage then a thunderhawk or a shark. I think we should mark that off as "CRAZY TALK"

Or you could say that the extra trauma it causes brings it up to normal assault boat level.

I have seen the Caestus... its not much bigger then a land raider, and let's not forget our scale here.

One, please note that just as in BFG, all 40k minis are not actually to the same scale.  Try and fit 12 IG in a Chimera.  You'll see what I mean.

Two, according to IA X, the Caestus rams the ship in manner sound similar to a kamikazi, with the crew and passengers protected by an inertial dampener that requires them to all be in power armor.  A shark or thawk, from descriptions, anchor to the target and bore through the hull.  The caestus partially melts the hull with a giant meltagun and then crashes through it.  (Think a boarding torp that makes a bigger hole then usual.

[RCgothic]

Actually, that's pretty much how I imagine boarding torpedoes work anyway. I don't buy this 'bigger hole than normal' stuff.

[Zhukov]

This should never, ever, ever, have the affect of a bomber.

At best, it's an A-boat squadron (with maybe 35cm or 40cm speed). But since the SM's have a resilient A-Boat already, there really is no place for the Caestus.

-Zhukov

[Bryantroy2003]

Let it have an effect in planetary assaults, such as +1 added to the result for every turn spent in low orbit? Thats all I got.

[BaronIveagh]

This should never, ever, ever, have the affect of a bomber.

Why?

According to FFG, the description for the bombing run of an individual starhawk basically plasters exposed surface targets with missiles and a small payload of plasma bombs, (who damage is, btw, less then the Caestus's super meltagun).  Thank you, Mr Chambers, for clearing that up for us all these years later. 

Granted, it would be, damage wise, more like a torpedo hit. 

As far as a bigger hole, remember that boarding torpedoes are, in canon, smaller then assault boats.

[RCgothic]

Torpedoes are 300ft long. Boarding torpedoes come out the same tubes. Ergo, Boarding Torps are in the region of 300ft long. That's far larger than a Caestus.

[BaronIveagh]

Torpedoes are 300ft long. Boarding torpedoes come out the same tubes. Ergo, Boarding Torps are in the region of 300ft long. That's far larger than a Caestus.

According to current fluff, the basic anti-ship torpedoes are approx 150-180 feet long [BFK, page 6]. The shark is approx 150 feet long.  

'...boarding torpedoes are less manuverable and less armored then assault boats.  To offset these flaws, they are also much smaller targets'. (pg 8 )  Further, given the description of how a IN torp tube works, it doesn't matter if it's smaller, as long as it's not bigger.  Basically, they're described as using mag fields to propel the torp out of the tube before the engine ignites. So as long as it floats on the mag field, they should shoot a one inch ball bearing out of the tube if they wanted.  

[Zhukov]

Well I don't really care about what fluff says about the "real dimensions" or "science" of any of the ships or ordanance of this game because its all hokey and stupid to me. Super-megalomaniac-laser-plasma-gun-of-doom means nothing to me.

I'll speak in relative terms though. And in relative terms, a squadron of bombers plasters multiple areas of a ship where the Caestus hits one spot each, the spot that it eventually rams itself into (thereby, only creating one hole per Caestus). By comparison, each Starhawk plasters around what, ~20?, areas of a ship? That is not even close to a comparison in terms of damage output. It would be like saying the Hs-129 German ground attack plane was more effective than a Ju-87 Stuka because it had a bigger gun.

Look at it this way, the Ram will fire a shot into the enemy ship right before impact and then smash through it, and release it's small complement of troops to cause havoc (essentially, having the jump on the defenders). The Shark/T'hawk will slowly approach it's target, bore a hole through (giving the enemy time to react), and then offload it's much much larger complement of troopers. To me, this balances out. It should play the same.


-Zhukov

[BaronIveagh]

Well I don't really care about what fluff says about the "real dimensions" or "science" of any of the ships or ordanance of this game because its all hokey and stupid to me. Super-megalomaniac-laser-plasma-gun-of-doom means nothing to me.

I'll speak in relative terms though. And in relative terms, a squadron of bombers plasters multiple areas of a ship where the Caestus hits one spot each, the spot that it eventually rams itself into (thereby, only creating one hole per Caestus). By comparison, each Starhawk plasters around what, ~20?, areas of a ship? That is not even close to a comparison in terms of damage output. It would be like saying the Hs-129 German ground attack plane was more effective than a Ju-87 Stuka because it had a bigger gun.

Look at it this way, the Ram will fire a shot into the enemy ship right before impact and then smash through it, and release it's small complement of troops to cause havoc (essentially, having the jump on the defenders). The Shark/T'hawk will slowly approach it's target, bore a hole through (giving the enemy time to react), and then offload it's much much larger complement of troopers. To me, this balances out. It should play the same.


-Zhukov

Starhawks are 10 per squadron, so 10 targets.  If the assault ram follows the same numbers as SM aboats, it's a squadron of 15. 

That's more holes of a comparable size. 

However, given the odd method of attack, how about a bonus against turrets? 

[Zhukov]

Starhawks are 10 per squadron, so 10 targets.  If the assault ram follows the same numbers as SM aboats, it's a squadron of 15. 

That's more holes of a comparable size. 

However, given the odd method of attack, how about a bonus against turrets? 

I assume you meant Shark and not Starhawk? Because everything I understand is the Caestus is more the size of a fighter (in relative size that is) which is way smaller than an A-Boat or Bomber (whose much larger payload will do much more damage). And by the comparison of a Shark to a Caestus, it's exactly the same in my opionion.


But in terms of method of attack, how is the Caestus any different than a boarding torpedo? If you want to make it unique, give it 35-40cm speed and make it resilient because it's small and agile. It acts like a resilient A-boat. That's unique and much different than a T'Hawk meaning no confusion between the two.

-Zhukov

[BaronIveagh]

I assume you meant Shark and not Starhawk? Because everything I understand is the Caestus is more the size of a fighter (in relative size that is) which is way smaller than an A-Boat or Bomber (whose much larger payload will do much more damage). And by the comparison of a Shark to a Caestus, it's exactly the same in my opionion.


But in terms of method of attack, how is the Caestus any different than a boarding torpedo? If you want to make it unique, give it 35-40cm speed and make it resilient because it's small and agile. It acts like a resilient A-boat. That's unique and much different than a T'Hawk meaning no confusion between the two.

Hmm... Ok, so it's have to launch from a launch bay, is resiliant, but counts as a boarding torp for purposes of turret defense?  Would work well combined with Thawks, turrets could only shoot at one or the other but not both.

Huh, Furies are about 100 feet long now.  So, 2/3 the size of a shark.

[Zelnik]

How about we don't make new rules that give an already good faction even better stuff.

Caestus assault rams are just not big enough to warrant extra damage. They are just assault boats, that's it.



Also on the word of the bombs etc...

The goal is to blow open the hull through weak spots in such a  manner that will ignite the oxygen inside and kill the crew, along with frying systems. A melta gun instead will cause a much smaller hole or gash, and is far easier to repair. I expect that they use the melta gun to weaken the hull before the ship rams through.



Remember: FFG is not GW,  they are just liscenced by GW to make RPGs from the GW. Their books have no more weight in the fluff then Relic's Dawn of War games.

I happen to know one of the people who works at FFG... he was openly criticized for his "better then BFG" opinion by a member of GW. 

He also blamed the fall of Bfg and the strangeness of the fluff on Andy Chambers.

He blamed a LOT of stuff on andy chambers... and he liked Matt ward.

Nuff said.

[BaronIveagh]

Remember: FFG is not GW,  they are just liscenced by GW to make RPGs from the GW. Their books have no more weight in the fluff then Relic's Dawn of War games.

If that's what you want to think, go ahead, however, GW has, in the past, stated that it is, in fact, fluff and equal to GW's own.  Regardless of what idiocy individuals at either company may spout.