Caestus Assault Ram

[Eddie Orlock]

So, ForgeWorld has recently introduced these to the background of the system and noted that they're used in ship to ship actions as an alternative Marine assault boat to ThunderHawks and Sharks. Perhaps it would make sense to consider a quick line for the next rules update allowing for their use. Maybe something like:

Space Marine capital ships may be upgraded with wings of Caestus Assault Rams for 5 pts. A wing of assault rams acts like a wing of assault boats as described in the main rules moving with a speed of 30cm, except, that as befits its role as a superbly constructed tool of the Emperors Angels of Death it, like the Thunderhawk, is resiliant to attack and has a similar 4+ save against being removed involentarily.

Quick, simple, and to the point. So, what do you think, worth a few playtests?

[Valhallan]

it's just a resilient a-boat? whats the point? t-hawks are resilient aboat/fighter hybrids. (is there a speed difference?)

[Zhukov]

I had proposed the idea of representing the Caestus as an A-Boat (not resiliant) in a different forum when it was announced months ago. Basically the idea was shot down as being not needed. Honestly, after a short discussion, I agree.

Just play it as a house rule with opponet's permission. We aren't going to see it official.

-Zhukov

[RCgothic]

To be worth +5pts over thunderhawks it would need to have speed 35cm or something.

[Eddie Orlock]

it's just a resilient a-boat? whats the point? t-hawks are resilient aboat/fighter hybrids. (is there a speed difference?)

The speed difference is the difference.

I'll share the opinion that it's not really required, it would be more a thing for completeness really. Integrating Vanguard Cruisers into the codex fleet list would be a higher priority, but, this would be a quick and easy thing to add into an overhaul if the list was going to be republished.

I did consider the idea of a straight swap out, but it's noted as using the same hangar facilities.

Maybe the answer lies in the direction RC suggests, but perhaps further, say 40cm, or even 50cm with the caviet that the small raiding parties of marines don't get the +1 Astartes bonus on the chart.

[Masque]

What if they are standard assault boats that are only hit by turrets on a 5+ to represent their heavy shielding and armour?  They would still get the +1 for having marines on board.  This makes them better than Thunderhawks unless the enemy have CAP or time to intercept with fighters in which case they are worse.

[Eddie Orlock]

What if they are standard assault boats that are only hit by turrets on a 5+ to represent their heavy shielding and armour?  They would still get the +1 for having marines on board.  This makes them better than Thunderhawks unless the enemy have CAP or time to intercept with fighters in which case they are worse.

It doesn't matter what you suggest, the Marine Hate here is so strong that nothing stands a chance. The present line of endevour is to send e-mails with ideas to Forgeworld so that the next Imperial Armour to feature Marines might include a page or two with Gothic stuff and mention this. In this manner we can bypass the  anti-Astartes attitudes.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

There's no Marine hate here rather there is no Marine fanboyism. If there were Marine hate then SM wouldn't have any ship bigger than escorts. What the SM have is already representative of what their primary role in space should be. So where is the hate there? The ram might be feasible as long as it is not overpowered. But if I start seeing the ram rolling 2 or 3D6 in ramming actions against cap ships then I'll be against it, definitely.

[horizon]

Heya,

Space Marine hate?

As admiral d'artagnan says there is a difference between keeping them in check and fanboism.

In the draft2010 we gave Strike Cruisers more weapon options (heck, it got an overpowered prow weapon as an option), an extra shield. Resilient bombers!
All over the list got better and more versatile. The weakest point in the Marine list (Strike Cruisers) has been severly improved.

[Eddie Orlock]

I knew I should have picked something polysylabic like 'antipathy'. Still, it stirred the pot and got a few more replies and so I feel mollified.

I think it may have just been a case of petulantly feeling ignored when I, having fallen so far out of touch with the online Gothic community, posted a concept that had already been discussed in my absence.

I defer to the greater wisdom of the community.

As for rolling multiple d6 vs. capital ships, just so we're clear on the subject, these assault rams are smaller than thunderhawks. I too would have a hard time imagining ordinance grade craft rolling for collision damage against any craft with a leadership value.

I think it's unavoidable, but the discussions around here can get decidedly arcane and opaic.

Least Gothic's not like Firestorm Armada with it's broken turning mechanic that makes it faster to zig-zag toward the target than set a course and fly.

[Zelnik]

The Caestus assault ram is SMALLER then the Shark assault boat, and smaller then the Thunderhawk.

If you want to use it, it should be an upgrade that gives you MORE of them, but weaker overall effect.

So I would say: a Space Marine vessel may be upgraded to carry Caestus assault rams.

Caestus assault rams: Function as normal assault boats, if taken, the space marine vessel doubles it's launch capacity. Due to the small numbers of troops carried by the Caestus, space marines do NOT get their +1 to hit and run attacks.

[RCgothic]

That's a reasonable idea, but how much is +1 worth compared to double crits? Maybe it needs an additional -1 so that it can only ever affect weapons.

[Zelnik]

Its not just +1 compared to doube the number.

The caestus is not resilient, is not a fighter and is not partial to the +1 that space marines get, it is a normal assault boat.

I find these two options to be quite balanced.

[Eddie Orlock]

Basically, it'd undo a portion of the usual exchange mandated on Venerable Barges. The ship could 'un-half' its ordinance for this selected type. This does not seem unreasonable.

[Zelnik]

That's exactly what I intended.

This exchange originated back in the blue-book rules before space marines had their own fleet.