Modeling Question

[RCgothic]

I still only see the Slaughter as needing an image change, though I can't remember what we've done with the powers of Chaos list if anything.

[Sigoroth]

Well anyway, take my last posts with a grain of salt. I just really don't like combi-decks. Though the PoC is a PoS. There's no getting around that.

[lastspartacus]

Purely aesthetic?

[Zhukov]

Well anyway, take my last posts with a grain of salt. I just really don't like combi-decks. Though the PoC is a PoS. There's no getting around that.

Damn dude why didn't you just say that and save everyone a lot of time instead of mudslinging me for thinking the Slaughter, as pictured, looks good? Should I still attempt to break that post down and continue the debate?

In regards to the PoC document, you're pissed because I bet you built the Slaughter the way you wanted to and now they have the Inferno, right? Because the ships in that document are truly are not needed (but didn't you argue FOR the Hectate?). HOWEVER, I do believe it's about time the four gods of Chaos each have individual fleets with different special abilities and costs for daemonships.

Purely aesthetic?

Yes this is a purely aesthetic argument.

-Zhukov

[Valhallan]

Magnets frakkin rule

[Sigoroth]

Damn dude why didn't you just say that and save everyone a lot of time instead of mudslinging me for thinking the Slaughter, as pictured, looks good?

Prolly cause I've been looking to vent about the hypocrisy of the HA. First they allow "either" so that people don't have to redo their ships and then they enshrine the combi-deck, meaning people would have to redo their ships. The whole mentality of inventing a combi-deck to fix a graphical problem also annoys me as it creates more problems than it fixes.

Should I still attempt to break that post down and continue the debate?

If you really want to.

In regards to the PoC document, you're pissed because I bet you built the Slaughter the way you wanted to and now they have the Inferno, right? Because the ships in that document are truly are not needed (but didn't you argue FOR the Hectate?). HOWEVER, I do believe it's about time the four gods of Chaos each have individual fleets with different special abilities and costs for daemonships.

I'm annoyed at the document because they went with the name Inferno, instead of any of the much better and more apropos choices. I'm annoyed at the document because they ditched the good Hecate fluff. I'm annoyed with the document because the Hecate should really simply have been a heavy Dev. I'm annoyed with the document because they insist on allowing the Chaos powers barges to produce 3 AC per hardpoint. I'm annoyed because their battlebarges stats yet again don't match the model.

The Scion of Prospero. It has 1 launch bay each side which produces 3 AC. This alone is enough to get the ship binned as far as I'm concerned. Add onto that the fact that it has 4 dorsal lances. This is more than any other BB and roughly 3 times as powerful as the Apocalypse's dorsal armament. Then, to make matters worse, it has 9WB broadside using a WB hardpoint and a lance hardpoint! Even if you subscribe to the combi-deck theory it should still have some sort of lance armament in the broadside to match the picture! Bin this piece of crap.

The Wage of Sin very nearly provides some redemption for the document, probably by virtue of the fact it's based off a Desolator rather than a Despoiler. But no, they even managed to screw that by giving it 3AC from one launch bay. If they wanted to make it more powerful they could've increased the dorsal weaponry to 9.

The Terminus Est has been around for a long time and it is probably from this ship that they got the 3AC per launch bay idea from in the first place. Well this ship was always a bad fix to the Despoiler, giving 3/3/3 when it should have been 2/2/4. However, it used to be palatable because of its weak broadside WBs. One could merely assume the picture was wrong and model it with 2 launch bays per side and 1 WB piece per side, giving it Styx broadsides in AC. Having 6WB@30cm from 1 WB hardpoint is not at all unreasonable. This inefficient broadside arrangement isn't so bad given the amount of weaponry in the prow, so from an overall balance point of view it wasn't too bad. However, as it sets bad precedents (3AC from 1 hardpoint, 3AC prows + secondary weaponry) and even when "fixed" to 2 launch bays + 1 WB piece per side it is still objectionable (a battleship only getting 6 AC out of 2 hardpoints per side, short ranged WBs, overloaded prow) then yet again it's a bad design.

The Vengeful Spirit is pretty much like the TE, only a little worse. The model has that gaping maw of a launch bay but this one has been nerfed down to strength 2, rather than upped to strength 4. It is still using 1 launch bay per side to represent 3 AC and 2 WBs per side to represent firepower 6 (the same fix for TE would work here, with the same problems). Yet again it keeps the prow lances, just like the Despoiler, even though there's no justification for it on the model. It suffers pretty much all the flaws of the Despoiler even with a piss weak attempt at a fix.

The Conqueror. Uses combi-decks. Nuff said. But I"ll say more anyway. It also has firepower 8 45cm range dorsal WBs. Firepower 9 at 60cm is not overpowered. In fact it's still weak compared to the standard alternative (3L@60cm). So why 8@45? Anyway, why use guns for a Khornate ship? It should have been based on a Despoiler hull and been given all launch bays, so it had 6/6/4 launch capability (16 AC in total). Then just restrict it to a-boats only. No bombers, no fighters. Dorsal weapon batteries and 25cm speed. There's your Chariot of Khorne.

Hecate = naff ship, Inferno = naff name & ho hum ship.

Conclusion: Document does more harm than good, makes it less likely the Despoiler profile will ever be fixed, presents logical absurdities and incongruous pictures (3AC per bay on these, 1.5 per bay on Styx, SoP, TE, VS pictures don't match stats) as well as some uncomfortable arrangements (2 or 3 AC on prow as well as lances, sometimes LFR sometimes fixed forward, or torpedoes). It also contradicts previous rulings of "players choice" by making the combi-deck official.

All of this is without even looking at the Powers special rules or balance. It's just a rubbish document. I'm truly surprised that it didn't include some NC toting light cruisers in there too. Remarkable restraint shown by the HA there.

[lastspartacus]

Me and Zelnik are engaged in a game involving Hecates right now.  Will let you know how it turns out

Last game was with Infernos, but anything past a day old is foggy to me, I'll leave him to comment on it.

Why do you think the combideck was 'invented'?  Didnt it come with the kits?
I'm going to make a confession.  Until reading this thread, it never occured to me to plug a lance straight into the hull slots.
I also just assumed the chaos kits just came with 3 different looking lances, but now it occurs to me that one or two might be intended as batteries...

[lastspartacus]

And agreed the names are inconsistent.  The Hecate needs to be called Inferno or Tartarus, or Abyss, some hellish name as all heavy cruisers are.
Inferno needs to be a result of conflict, like all the other cruisers.  Hell, Conflict itself would work better than Inferno.

That said, I like the Inferno.  I just realized it, but its the 'Lunar' I've been looking for in a chaos fleet.

[RCgothic]

Actually, Chaos Heavy Cruisers are named for greek deities, Hades, Styx, Acheron and Hecate are all greek deities/titans.

[lastspartacus]

What, the rivers are deities?  They are all hell related.  An Apollo heavy cruiser would just sound so wrong.

[RCgothic]

Hades is the god of the Underworld,
Hecate is the goddess of magic, witchcraft, the night, moon, ghosts and necromancy
Acheron had been a son of Helios and either Gaia or Demeter.
Styx was also the name of the daughter of Oceanus and Tethys.

True, they do all have links with the underworld.

[Plaxor]

So here is what I'm thinking for images/models:

Relictor: 3xCombo Deck
Hecate: 1xlances, 1xLB
Cerberus: (inferno) 1xCD, 1xWB
Murder (alt): 1Lances, 1xWB
Devestation: 1xlances, 1xwb

I think the only one that really changes here is the Devestation, but it had to be either the Devestation or the Slaughter, and it makes more sense to have the combi-decks here, as it separates it further from the Murder/Cerberus(inferno) which are both cruisers.

[RCgothic]

I'm with Sig in calling for an end to combi-decks. It's either WB, Lance or LB.

[Valhallan]

yep. funny lances poking up from diples in chaos ships is just wrong. mount them all on decks, call them lances (not combi decks)

[Plaxor]

But you understand the problem? Then there are three vessels with Lance/WB. At least with the combi-deck then you can keep track of your slaughters...