Modeling Question

[Zhukov]

So how do you model the alternate Murder cruiser now that we have the Inferno?

-Zhukov

[Plaxor]

Most people do murders by cutting off a little of the underside plastic at the prow and putting a turret there.

Or you could do something similar to how people note the difference between carnages and murders. By cutting off the antennae.

[Valhallan]

cut off the front mast and mount a frakkin lance there.

btw i just bought a chaos fleet and i was wondering why a slaughter is modeled by double lance decks even though its way more wb heavy. wtf

[Zhukov]

Hmm. That sucks honestly. I always imagined the alternate Murder model as EXACTLY what the Inferno build is. Since it has 2 lances per side, only having one lance turret on the prow or dorsal mounting blows.

btw i just bought a chaos fleet and i was wondering why a slaughter is modeled by double lance decks even though its way more wb heavy. wtf

Not sure what you mean.... The Slaughter uses the WB/Lance 'combo' bits for it's weapons slots. Can you upload a pic of what you're looking at?

-Zhukov

[Valhallan]

i'm looking at the side profile of the slaughterer in the ships of the gothic sector pdf. it's got 2 lance decks.

[Zhukov]

Well, yeah then. It's right. It has two lances on each side so you obviously need bits to have two lance turrets on each side. The combo bit (which is also on the Conqueror) is different than what I consider is the "lance deck" which I equate to the Acheron. Would you agree?

-Zhukov

[Sigoroth]

i'm looking at the side profile of the slaughterer in the ships of the gothic sector pdf. it's got 2 lance decks.

You are completely correct, it is shown with 2 lance decks. There have been a few anomalies in the way Chaos ships have been pictured compared with their stats. The Planet Killers stats for example, don't really line up with the model. But this is a really unique ship overall and since it shares virtually no common components with other ships it can be hand waived away. However, the Desolator, Despoiler, Acheron, Devastation and Slaughter all cause some problems.

The Despoiler is most obvious in its crapness and is oft complained about. A little strange then that no less than 3 further ships were based upon it, with varying degrees of success in fixing its crapness (seriously, the fuckin profile should have been changed and further Despoiler based ships should have used that profile. Hell, they should have been based on a fixed profile even if the Despoiler was never officially changed ... retarded).

The other incongruities however are a little less clear cut. The Desolator and Acheron both represent lances by plugging turrets directly into the hull whereas the Devastation uses the lance deck provided on the sprue. The Slaughter uses 2 of these lance decks to represent 8WB and 2 lances. So one of these pictures is incorrect. The reasoning used by some is that the little guns on the lance decks represent WBs (4@30cm in fact) and the big turret represents 1 lance (at 30cm) so that 2 of these decks combined gives a Slaughters armament. Therefore it is correctly pictured. However, I don't know why this rationalisation was ever brought in since it still means that there is an incorrectly pictured ship; the Dev. Presumably the Dev should then have turrets plugged into the hull to represent lances, like the Acheron and Desolator.

My argument is that the Dev is pictured correctly and the Slaughter should replace one lance deck with one WB deck. The lances of the Acheron and Desolator being plugged straight into the hull merely represent weak long ranged lances. In the flawed ships thread the Dev comes down to 45cm range and so fits in line with this idea.

So, what are the benefits of presuming the Slaughter is the ship pictured incorrectly? I'll list them:

• Better looking models. WB+lance deck Slaughter looks much better than 2 x lance deck Slaughter. Also, the Dev looks really stupid with lances plugged in to the hull, as would the "Inferno" or Murder variant.
• Logical consistency of the models. It seems unlikely that the Chaos cruisers were shipped with a launch bay, a WB deck and a "combi-deck" whereas the IN have LB, WB and lance deck.
• Greater representative versatility. Allows the WB deck piece to represent 8WB@30cm on top of the 6@45cm & 4@60cm it currently represents. Also allows the lance deck to represent 2L at 30cm as well as at 45cm (fixed Dev).
• Greater model flexibility. Gives us the option to create an all lance Chaos cruiser that does not look like an Acheron. This is good, given the Acheron is fairly unique (in profile at least). Similarly it allows mixed weapon BBs. Can you imagine a Chaos BB with, say, 1 LB, 1 WB and 1 lance each side if the lances had to be plugged into the hull to represent lances? FUGLY.

On the other hand, a "combi-deck" gives little option. It always represents 4WB+1L@30cm. Soooo, it just allows a BB to have 12WB+3L@30cm. Yay. If you treat it as a lance deck then the same BB could have 6L at 30-45cm range. If you gave it all WB decks it could have 12@60cm, 18@45cm or 24@30cm! If you mixed it up you could have 8WB@30cm, 2L@45cm and 2AC, for example. Or any combination. You could play with WB range/strength, etc. In short, it is more versatile and looks better.

Up until now it has been player choice which to do. If you're really short on WB pieces then you could do the "combi-deck" thing for your Slaughters. If you hated that idea you could do them properly. Now, with the Conqueror, Nate has managed to enshrine the crap "combi-deck" as official. What's more, he managed to do it while introducing 5 new ships, all of which are shit in one way or another. Bin that entire document. It's a fuckin travesty.

[Zhukov]

Wow Sig! To put it simply, I completely disagree with you on several points 

Presumably the Dev should then have turrets plugged into the hull to represent lances, like the Acheron and Desolator.

That is exactly it. Everything makes sense when you fix the dang Dev picture.

On several of the points you mention later, I would bring these counterpoints:

- The Acheron and Desolater don't necessarily have "weak lances". It may be the other aspects of the profile. The Acheron get's three turrets and the Desolator get's 25cm speed. These, for me, is the reason why the lance armament on each of these are "weaker" compared to the models.
- I love the Slaughter as illustrated.
- Why would it be 'illogical' to have the Chaos get a "combo-deck"? The Chaos get four options of broadsides (Launch Bay, Weapons Battery, Combo-Deck, and Lances directly into the hull) whereas the Imperial only have three for the simple reason they can't apply anything to the hull. Chaos are supposed to have bigger gun fleets anyway so why not have the combo-deck?
- "Greater Representative Ability". Your forgot the 5 WB @ 45cm for the WB bit when it's used on the Murder or Hades. These WB strengths you list wouldn't change if you have a "combo-deck" in existence.
- The Chaos don't need a Gothic like cruiser. It can easily be done by just removing the dorsal turrets of the Acheron. But honestly, a Chaos BB with 2 "combo-decks" and the third slot having either a Launch Bay or 2 Lance turret's plugged into the hull would be fine with me.
- Combo-Decks give PLENTY of options. It doesn't HAVE to be restricted to 30cm range. We have just used it as such so far (the Conqueror and Slaughter would be overpowering with additional range as written). You can increase the range of the weapons and have alternate strength's depending on the class of ship (BB, GC, HC, etc).
- Powers of Chaos is exactly what Chaos needed (the BB's were optional, though really nice stat lines). I have a problem with Bakka seemingly being created due to the existence of the PoC document. It seems we may go down the line of WH40K, where every few years you upgrade a fleet with ships and special rules just to make it competable. I imagine the Necrons, Corsair and Craftworld Eldar, and Tyranids will get the next update.

-Zhukov

[Sigoroth]

Wow Sig! To put it simply, I completely disagree with you on several points 

Presumably the Dev should then have turrets plugged into the hull to represent lances, like the Acheron and Desolator.

That is exactly it. Everything makes sense when you fix the dang Dev picture.

No, it doesn't. Everything makes sense when you fix that "dang" Slaughter picture. The Acheron/Desolator disparity is not fixed by changing the Dev. The absurdity of the modellers giving us a "combi-deck" is not fixed. The ugliness of the models is not fixed.

On several of the points you mention later, I would bring these counterpoints:

- The Acheron and Desolater don't necessarily have "weak lances". It may be the other aspects of the profile. The Acheron get's three turrets and the Desolator get's 25cm speed. These, for me, is the reason why the lance armament on each of these are "weaker" compared to the models.

Of course they have weak lances. Of course they have reasons to be weak, but they are weak. The Desolator and the Acheron both have weak long ranged lances. In the case of the Desolator you could say that it's due to the speed. In the case of the Acheron you could say that it's a trade-off to get the range (though the dorsal lance range should be upgraded to make that case make sense, as well as the Dev fixed to come down to 45cm). However, the common theme here is that each of these ships have their lances plugged straight into the hull. If you do that with all lances then you erase this theme. This is fine. However, if you make every other lance armed vessel use the lance deck instead of plugging into the hull then this theme comes to the fore in explaining why some ships have one type of lance deck and others have another. So this theme allows the item in question to function as a lance deck. Therefore no incongruity to the Dev using it as a lance deck. Similarly no incongruity if the Slaughter used it as a lance deck and swapped one set out for WB decks. Along with some profile changes (ie, Despoiler stats to match model, Dev lance range to come down) then the entire Chaos fleet would be congruous. Ahhhh. Feels good. With combi-fuckin-decks incongruity abounds.

- I love the Slaughter as illustrated.

Well that's a bit retarded of you but it does mean that if an all lance cruiser comes out you'll like the look of those.

- Why would it be 'illogical' to have the Chaos get a "combo-deck"? The Chaos get four options of broadsides (Launch Bay, Weapons Battery, Combo-Deck, and Lances directly into the hull) whereas the Imperial only have three for the simple reason they can't apply anything to the hull. Chaos are supposed to have bigger gun fleets anyway so why not have the combo-deck?

What can you do with a combi-deck that you can't with separate decks combined? What is the point of them? Why give them to us at all? Why not just have the Slaughter with a WB deck and some lances plugged directly into the hull? The IN were given 3 hardpoints: LB, WB and lance. Chaos were given 3 hardpoints: LB, WB and ...? Why not make a half WB half Lance deck for the IN?


If the picture of the Slaughter was 1 WB deck and 1 lance deck there'd never have been confusion about combi-decks or any of this shit. In fact, it was assumed to be wrong for a long time and then some bright spark (read retard) came up with the idea of a combi-deck so that the picture didn't have to be wrong. This is so retarded because it would then mean the Dev would be pictured wrong, defeating the purpose of coming up with a combi-deck rationale in the first place. So either way there is a picture wrong, but for some reason people invented a combi-deck to resolve the issue. Occam's razor you morons!

- "Greater Representative Ability". Your forgot the 5 WB @ 45cm for the WB bit when it's used on the Murder or Hades. These WB strengths you list wouldn't change if you have a "combo-deck" in existence.

Actually 4WB@45cm, since this would be added to a normal 6WB@45cm. But with the combi-deck there is no 8WB@30cm.

- The Chaos don't need a Gothic like cruiser. It can easily be done by just removing the dorsal turrets of the Acheron. But honestly, a Chaos BB with 2 "combo-decks" and the third slot having either a Launch Bay or 2 Lance turret's plugged into the hull would be fine with me.

Er, if Chaos don't need a Gothic type cruiser why were they given the Executor? Also, how can it "easily be done" by removing the dorsal lances of an Acheron? Are you saying that you just plug the turrets into the hull and there you have your lance cruiser? Why then would this lance cruiser have 4 lances and the Acheron, identical but for extra weaponry on the spine, have only 2?

Why would you put 2 combi-decks and, say a launch bay onto a BB to represent WBs, lances and AC when you could just put 1 of each bay on? What if you had, say, 2 launch bays and lances? You'd plug some turrets into the hull for the lances and use the LBs for the other slots? You know how ugly that would be? It'd be as ugly as the Dev with a launch bay and turrets plugged into the hull, ie, FUCKING ugly.

By FAR the simplest thing to do to fix ALL problems would be to just cut and paste a WB deck over one of the Slaughters lance decks. Done. All solved. Now, I know that the HA don't want to do this because there are a lot of people who have made their Slaughters as pictured, despite it being silly and not looking as good as a proper Slaughter. So fine, leave it player option. But why penalise the people who constructed them properly by making the stupid combi-deck official? There'll be just as many people who'd have to alter their Slaughters and Devastations. If they were willing to make this sort of call then they should've simply done the cut & paste to fix the Slaughter's picture when the rulebook went online.

- Combo-Decks give PLENTY of options. It doesn't HAVE to be restricted to 30cm range. We have just used it as such so far (the Conqueror and Slaughter would be overpowering with additional range as written). You can increase the range of the weapons and have alternate strength's depending on the class of ship (BB, GC, HC, etc).

The combi-deck adds nothing to the game. Fuck it off. If YOU want to play ugly models, then fine. Don't try to enforce the fuckin thing though.

- Powers of Chaos is exactly what Chaos needed (the BB's were optional, though really nice stat lines). I have a problem with Bakka seemingly being created due to the existence of the PoC document. It seems we may go down the line of WH40K, where every few years you upgrade a fleet with ships and special rules just to make it competable. I imagine the Necrons, Corsair and Craftworld Eldar, and Tyranids will get the next update.

This is exactly what Chaos DOESN'T need. Another bunch of confused model/stat ships. There isn't a single ship in that piece of shit document that should see the light of day. The closest is the Slaanesh BB, but then Nate had to absolutely fuck it by giving it 3 launch bays per side from ONE hardpoint. So it does twice as good as the Styx. Hell, if he's going to give us that sort of ratio the screw the guns I'll take all launch bays please and have an 18 AC carrier! Fuckin retarded.

Seriously, the PoC is a complete PoS.

[RCgothic]

I officially propose BFG:R fixes the slaughter image.

[lastspartacus]

Coming in late and not reading it all, but by combi-deck do you mean the lil guns with the lance on top?

[horizon]

Yes, he does.

[Plaxor]

Would you like me to fix all the images?

[RCgothic]

Which other ones are wrong?

[Plaxor]

See sig's post.