BFG DE BB?

[captPiett]

IIRC it was Tallboy bombs that sank the Yamato.  granted, it's often attributed to the IJN's lousy damage control infrastructure, but it was clearly possible for fighter-bombers to hit and seriously damage the Yamato (on their first run, no less) in the first place.
[/quote]
Yeah, Tallboys were in a different hemisphere than the Yamato altogther. It also took multiple runs to sink it: first round took out the AA guns and gunners with bombs, second and subsequent waves delivered the torpedoes.
If you're in the mood for obscure facts: the third would-be Yamato BB was converted to a carrier, but on its way from one shipyard to another to get a final fitting out, an American sub sunk it (practically in Japanese home waters to boot). The IJN hadn't even fitted the ship with many of its watertight doors yet; it sank pretty fast.
In general, Japanese ships (at least their carriers anyway) had horrible damage control. Their carrier aviation was a very fragile instrument.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Actually, the Shinano did have watertight doors. Unfortunately, the Captain didn't think the damage was serious enough to warrant closing the doors and the damage was such that the waters overcame the pumps. In this regard, damage control was pretty bad but then again, this was the point in time when Japanese sailors weren't experienced enough anymore.

If you notice the earlier period, Japanese damage control was pretty good. Examples would be during the Battle of the Coral Sea when Shokaku took some bomb hits but managed to make it back. The Battle of Midway which would be the Mogami which managed to reach haven despite heavy damage and Mikuma before the US bombers caught up with her and sank her, the Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu which took hours to sink and the last of the four even lasting until daylight. Again, Shokaku took damage during Santa Cruz and survived again. The Kirishima took a lot of the USS Washington's hits before finally succumbing at Guadalcanal. In Leyte Gulf, the Takao managed to limp back with torp damage. Musashi even lasted quite a while before sinking with the force she was accompanying even passing her two times.

[Sredni Vashtar]

Why wouldn't they want it if the battleship exists? If I were a DE captain, I would. I would even take them off the other Kabals hands if they didn't want it.

sure, but there's still the issue of crew, supplies, repairs etc.  i'm not suggesting the DE wouldn't know what to do with a battleship if they got one-- they've probably captured a fair number of other Eldar and alien battleships over 12,000 years, after all-- just that very few Kabals would have the numbers, resources or facilities to actually maintain one, long-term, as a warship. 

of course, the same argument, in purely background terms, would conclude that corsair Eldar shouldn't have battleships either, for precisely the same reasons; so i guess it's a pretty academic point.  i think we're all aware of the 'real' reasons there will never be an official DE BB...

The attack on the Yamato was a purely USN endeavor. No Tallboys were used and it was torpedoes which led to the Yamato's demise, especially since they only concentrated on one side of the ship. Tallboys took the Tirpitz out of the war, not the Yamato.

duh,  you are right, of course; that's what i get for posting hungover from the park, with pretty girls distracting me 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

sure, but there's still the issue of crew, supplies, repairs etc.  i'm not suggesting the DE wouldn't know what to do with a battleship if they got one-- they've probably captured a fair number of other Eldar and alien battleships over 12,000 years, after all-- just that very few Kabals would have the numbers, resources or facilities to actually maintain one, long-term, as a warship. 

They might be fewer than their cousins but I don't think they would be so few that they couldn't crew a couple of battleships. Not at this point in time anyway. Besides which, they could always just do with having their experimented monkeighs and other races on as crew.

[Sredni Vashtar]

They might be fewer than their cousins but I don't think they would be so few that they couldn't crew a couple of battleships. Not at this point in time anyway. Besides which, they could always just do with having their experimented monkeighs and other races on as crew.

oh, i don't know that they're meant to be necessarily so much fewer in number than the other branches of the Eldar 'tree'-- the sheer rate of attrition in DE society would indicate a far higher birthrate, for starters, and Comorragh is described in terms more apt to a "hive" world than a single craftworld/city.  but they are a lot more divided amongst themselves, into relatively small, mutually antagonistic kabals, and the concept of enlightened self-interest doesn't really figure in their society.  the total assets of Comorragh, in military terms, probably exceed those of all the major craftworlds combined; but each craftworld functions as a cohesive, self-sufficient arcology several million strong (they have to, in order to survive), whereas DE kabals would tend to max out at a few thousand, and are constantly in flux (in fact, the larger and more powerful a kabal becomes, the more the inevitable entropy and internecine conflicts accelerate its demise). 

the idea of slave crews is a neat one.  DE technology in general seems to be a lot less psychically-oriented than other Eldar stuff, so they might well be able to train slaves to basic shipboard operations (damage control, maintenance etc.)  slaves still need guards and overseers (and food!) though...

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

the idea of slave crews is a neat one.  DE technology in general seems to be a lot less psychically-oriented than other Eldar stuff, so they might well be able to train slaves to basic shipboard operations (damage control, maintenance etc.)  slaves still need guards and overseers (and food!) though...

Food yes but not so much since you just need the basic nutrients to keep them alive. Guards, probably not so much also since the experimented creatures aren't really mentally the same as before anymore if we go by fluff. They've been lobotomized already and follow the commands of their masters.

[Sigoroth]

As far as I'm concerned there are 3 major obstacles to the Dark Eldar having battleships. They are:

• ideological incongruity - they are a raiding race which relies upon hit & run style tactics, not the attrition based warfare battleships were designed for.
• logistical limitations - kabals are not immense bearaucracies with nigh unlimited manpower or resources.
• modus operandi incompatibility - the DE raid from out of the webway, their ships being small enough to navigate it; BBs are too large for much of the webway.

However, none of these are insurmountable obstacles. Indeed, the third point seems to have been used in the past to justify their lack of larger warships (so I vaguely recall at any rate) but this is strange given that the Corsair Eldar also use the webway to navigate and they have a battleship. This indicates that there are paths large enough to take a BB. Maybe there are just none large enough that connect to Comarragh. Either way, the DE could use a BB just as the CE do, and a kabal could certainly maintain and crew it just as the CE do, i.e., in some hidden deep space pirate base. As for ideological limitations ... well it isn't too far fetched to assume some splinter kabal decided to build a warfleet of sufficient size and staying power to really annoy the local sector commanders. The combination of inclination and facilitation however would be rare, and likely unique to particularly powerful and visionary leaders, so too should any DE BB be rare and unique. I don't see them being mass produced ...

[Sredni Vashtar]

Food yes but not so much since you just need the basic nutrients to keep them alive.

i dunno-- it's pretty hard work, especially in combat   i mean i know the DE aren't worried about squandering the lives of slaves, but they'd also be at least somewhat wary of having large sections of their workforce expiring on them at critical moments.  i would expect them to use stimulants etc. routinely, but there'd still come a point at which the overall cost/benefit equation of letting their slaves literally starve to death would overbalance.

Guards, probably not so much also since the experimented creatures aren't really mentally the same as before anymore if we go by fluff. They've been lobotomized already and follow the commands of their masters.

hmm, that would of course work with unskilled labourers... but the problem is that on board a warship, they'd also need significant numbers of trained and experienced workers (the equivalents to engineers and so on) capable, to a large degree, of thinking for themselves and reacting rapidly.  this is the other part of my doubt concerning the feasibility of running a battleship with nothing but braindead slaves and guards/slavedrivers-- there's too much stuff that neither of those groups could do effectively.

Indeed, the third point seems to have been used in the past to justify their lack of larger warships (so I vaguely recall at any rate) but this is strange given that the Corsair Eldar also use the webway to navigate and they have a battleship. This indicates that there are paths large enough to take a BB. Maybe there are just none large enough that connect to Comarragh.

... or possibly they don't use them very often, because they're not keen on potentially running into other Eldar fleets (given that they don't always get on very well with their Craftworld cousins)

[patghiggins]

Has anyone posted some possible Stats for a DE CA/BC or CG/BB?

Cruiser/8  //  Speed 30  // turn 90 // Shadowshields // Armor 5+ // Turrets 0
Prow Weapons Batteries    30cm               12                 Left/Front/Right
Pick 2 of the following (Any Combination)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prow Shadow Lance          30cm                2                        Front
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prow Tropedoes               30cm                4                        Front
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Impaler                           AC 30cm           Special                 Front
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Fighter 30cm
Launch Bay                     Bomber 20 cm      3                          ---
                                    Assault  30cm 
Base Points 230 with upgrades it ends up a little more than CWE Dragon Ship and it must have a Dread Archon and the 3 to 1 escot to Cap rule stiil stays the same.

[gribbly_horde]

I can definitely see a battlecruiser - the displacement change isn't that much (in the case of the Armageddon-class, it's literally a rebuild) from a cruiser, so it shouldn't limit portal access.

The new codex does specifically mention 'kabal flagships' as distinct from cruisers and corsairs - besides which, a suitably paranoid archon travelling in a fleet is going to insist his ship is capable of taking down any other ship in the fleet one-on-one in case one of his minions gets any sudden creative ideas.

Simply letting the Dread Archon's ship buy two weapons instead of one is a pretty simple way to create a battlecruiser equivalent.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Here's my Sadistic. 

Dark Eldar Sadistic Class Battleship.........320
Type/Hits: Battleship/10
Speed: 30 cm
Turns: 90'
Shields: Shadowfield
Armor: 5+
Turrets: 0
Armament: Range/Speed|Firepower/Strength|Fire Arc
Prow Batteries: 45 cm|12|Front

In addition, may be equipped with two of the following for the points shown:

Prow Torpedo Tubes: 30 cm|6|Front +20 points
Prow Phantom Lance: 45 cm|2|Front +20 points
Impaler: AC 30 cm|Special|Front +20 points
Launch Bays: Fighters 30 cm/Bombers 20 cm/ABs 30 cm|4| +40 points

Note:
Does not automatically CTNH but can use CTNH and it's firepower is only reduced by 25% instead of being halved.

Must have 1,000 points worth of DE ships before one can be fielded.

Author's note:
I thought about giving DE the fastest battleship while not on Special Orders. Also gave it heavier firepower on the base ship configuration but only having 2 hardpoints for add-ons for a total of 3 armaments compared the the 4 weapon hardpoints that the Void Stalker has. Comments and critiques welcome.

[Zelnik]

That's probably the most balanced thing i have ever seen you make, Admiral. good job!

I was always a fan of the grand cruiser idea, much like the Hero ship of the craftworld eldar.  An 8 hit cruiser with slightly greater firepower, what made it stronger was it's staying power.

[fracas]

scale it down to 8 hits?

[Zelnik]

there is no 'scaling back'

the ship does not exist, and probably won't ever exist. 

[horizon]

Officially that is.

Or they may start a surprise act with new Dark Eldar rules.