BFG DE BB?

[marengo]

If you make a mistake with one fleet, then you have to make a mistake with others as well?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Why? Was the VS a mistake? If it was, then two things:

1. Fix the mistake or
2. Don't fix it.

So which is it?

[fracas]

from a gaming standpoint, what is wrong with a DE BB?

they should definitely have something to use as their flagship beyond a plain cruiser

[marengo]

The VS was a mistake because;
a)   It clearly didn’t fit with the background and fluff.
b)   The Eldar did not need it to be competitive.
c)   It’s inclusion altered the balance of the Eldar fleet giving it an unwarranted advantage over some other (but not all) fleets.
d)   It removed one of the things that made the Eldar “different” from other fleets.


The most effective way to correct the mistake would, of course, be to remove the VS, but that would be hard on those who have paid out good money for the model so it won’t happen.

However, changing other fleets to give them a BB where, it doesn’t fit with the background and fluff, that don’t need it to be competitive, that would alter the balance of the fleet and would make that fleet less different is clearly not the way to go.

If you want to have everything the same as your opponent play chess.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

The VS was a mistake because;
a)   It clearly didn’t fit with the background and fluff.
b)   The Eldar did not need it to be competitive.
c)   It’s inclusion altered the balance of the Eldar fleet giving it an unwarranted advantage over some other (but not all) fleets.
d)   It removed one of the things that made the Eldar “different” from other fleets.

The most effective way to correct the mistake would, of course, be to remove the VS, but that would be hard on those who have paid out good money for the model so it won’t happen.

Still doesn't mean you can't fix it.

However, changing other fleets to give them a BB where, it doesn’t fit with the background and fluff, that don’t need it to be competitive, that would alter the balance of the fleet and would make that fleet less different is clearly not the way to go.

If you want to have everything the same as your opponent play chess.

The problem is the VS does exist and it flies in the face of background and fluff. There is a precedence. One therefore cannot just exclude a race, especially a race that is DIRECTLY related to the race which has the anomaly, just because it doesn't fit the background and fluff when the anomaly clearly doesn't fit the background and fluff of the race which has access to it. That's being unfair. Again, what's good for the gander HAS to be good for the goose. It's not even the case of having the same stuff as my opponent. If the Eldar didn't have the VS or only had a GC at best then I wouldn't go so far as to propose a battleship for either Eldar race and would only make a GC for the DE.

DE doesn't need anything to make it competitive? Somehow, I haven't heard of this.

[marengo]

The only time that it would matter to a DE player that "the Eldar have a BB" is when the DE are actually fighting against an Eldar force that is using a VS. In any other circumstances the dynamics of the game are not impacted at all.

I can only speak from experience within my group. DE take some time to master, but once you have the hang of them they tend to do fine against anything except certain types of Necron fleets, and pretty much everyone else has the same problem against that fleet.

In our games DE cruisers regularly either get behind Desolators or Retributions and quickly pound them to scrap. Alternativly, if the escorting ships are too strong the DE have a good chance of keeping out the way and attacking stragglers.

DE are by no means invincible as they are and if you roll badly for your holo-fields they can crumple very quickly, but generally we find they hold their own.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

The only time that it would matter to a DE player that "the Eldar have a BB" is when the DE are actually fighting against an Eldar force that is using a VS. In any other circumstances the dynamics of the game are not impacted at all.

If I had a DE fleet, I would prefer to have the option to take a BB than not to have it, regardless of whether my opponent is Eldar or not. Why would it not impact? Ray already makes points about a DE BB being OTT. I disagree but assuming it were to be true, it would definitely impact the dynamics of the game.

I can only speak from experience within my group. DE take some time to master, but once you have the hang of them they tend to do fine against anything except certain types of Necron fleets, and pretty much everyone else has the same problem against that fleet.

In our games DE cruisers regularly either get behind Desolators or Retributions and quickly pound them to scrap. Alternativly, if the escorting ships are too strong the DE have a good chance of keeping out the way and attacking stragglers.

DE are by no means invincible as they are and if you roll badly for your holo-fields they can crumple very quickly, but generally we find they hold their own.

Fine but it still doesn't prove they shouldn't have access to a battleship. As it is, they are the only race in BFG which does not have access to battleships. Eldar is one of the nastiest fleets out there capable of competing without having access to a battleship. Same with Necron. They both have battleships. DE should have one as well.

[RayB HA]

In terms of background there is nothing wrong with the Voidstalker! It's casual inclusion in the standard Corsair fleet list is bizarre but at the time there was no Craftworld Eldar list in the works so it was the only place to put it. The Voidstalker belongs in the Craftworld list; in the Gothic War background the Voidstalkers came from a Craftworld not a Corsair pirate base.

DE wouldn't build a BB! At least not as a conventional entry in their fleet list. If there were a DE BB it would be a character ship.

As the DE are a raiding fleet a BB would be over the top anyway! A GC is pushing it but in the interests of having a centre piece model a GC would be pretty cool. And as I've said many times now the added manoeuvrability and the smaller base would be far more suited to a Raiding fleet than a lumbering BB.

Cheers,

RayB  

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

So fix the VS so it is only included in a CWE list. And even then make it as restrictive as you can make it. As it is, it is readily accessible. I also do not believe the VS would be widely available even in a CWE list. It should be almost as limited as a DE character battleship and only slightly accessible.

I understand your reasoning Ray but until the VS is fixed, then I still stand by my original position regarding a DE battleship.

[fracas]

originally the orks were also a raiding fleet. then a waaagh fleet list was added with BB and BC.

currently the DE are a raiding fleet. what is wrong with add a war fleet list for DE that also has either a BB or a BC?

[RayB HA]

DE would/should NEVER have a full warfleet! Unless their background radically changed.

DE don't do anything other than raid! Also DE have to be the 'smallest' force in the 40K universe it would be crazy for them to conquer even a subsector.

Cheers,

RayB

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

They might have the smallest fleet but that doesn't mean they can't have a warfleet, esp if only to defend their homeworld. Remember the DE are a race which are an offshoot (depending on who's point of view, really) of one race. This race were once th pinnacle of civilization which most likely had their own fleets. The splitting of the races would have also undoubtedly split the fleet at least proportionately from the largest ships to the smallest. This includes battleships, Ray, if they existed at the time when the race was at its peak. Regardless of how you believe the DE should operate, logic would say this would be what happened. Similar to the what happened to the Emperor's forces in the Heresy.

Eldar initially didn't do anything but raid. The CWE didn't exist before but somehow BFG designers willed it to existence. Why can't you will a DE fleet similar in context to the CWE fleet but still fitting background fluff?

[RayB HA]

The Eldar are a divided and scattered race. You have Craftworld Eldar, which make up the vast majority of the population (official numbers on this don't and shouldn't exist), then you have Exodite Pirates (Corsairs) who to some extent are an extension of the Craftworld Eldar (that's where they originally came from after all), you also have Exodite, Maiden and similar Eldar worlds scattered throughout the Galaxy.

The Dark Eldar are far fewer in number than their less evil kin and are concentrated in the Webway at their 'homeworld' Commarragh and a handful of other webway colonies. The population of the DE come from descendants that survived the fall escaping into the webway and from fallen Exodites.

To feed their needs the DE have raiding fleets, but these fleets are not united they are controlled only by their cabal. You would have to have an extremely strong cabal to have a large raiding fleet. Having a full Warfleet coupled with the resources of holding a sub-sector is beyond a single cabal. If there were an alliance of cabals to undertake such an endeavour the weight of mistrust would undermine any hope of lasting success. In any case there wouldn't be a cabal willing or capable of building a BB on its own, especially as it would limit the fleets ability of travelling through the webway.

A GC for a super powerful cabal I see as being remotely possible. A pre-fall BB character ship I also see as possible.

Cheers,

RayB

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

They don't have to build it after the split. The ships most likely would have existed by the time the split happened. The loss of one will be keenly felt etc etc etc but they could and should exist.

[RayB HA]

That's what I just said! 

Pre-Fall BB Character ship! Normal centre piece would be a GC.

Cheers,

RayB