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Author Topic: BFG DE BB?  (Read 29957 times)

Offline RayB HA

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2009, 04:35:46 AM »
fracas,

The DE fluff to be fair is incomplete and scattered across rulebooks and even studio written novels. Their relationship with Slaanesh is one of fear, most DE don't worship Slaanesh or offer sacrifice. In fact it apears that some DE 'consume' the souls of others, this could just be ritualistic but it sounds a pretty cool!  ;D   

Cheers,

RayB
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Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2009, 10:02:08 AM »
Admiral_d_Artagnan,

The Voidstalker is penalised for its size by only being available in large raiding fleets. This represents its restricted access of the webway, it's rarity and more obviously helps balance the damned thing!

CE are far more likely to build BB's than DE and they only have a few Voidstalkers, which always end up in the hands of pirates!  ::)

Why would CE be far more likely to build BBs than DE? Any reason you give will most likely apply to their cousins as well. Also, availability in 1000 points in game terms does not make the VS rare.

I personally would like to see the EC and CE being represented in a similar manner to that of Ork Pirates and the Waaaagh list. Basically adding new classes and making them act like a normal fleet!

DE on the other hand can only really be a Raiding fleet. They don't secure territory (well, nothing like a system or subsector!) and they don't hang around in hard to thrive systems.

And Eldar secure territory well? Not likely. If they did then they wouldn't be skulking around avoiding the monkeighs now would they?

A DE GC (similar to the void dragon) would be a much welcome addition to the DE list, but nothing bigger! The pre-fall BB idea is still awesome but as I mentioned before it would have to be a character ship. 

Cheers,

RayB

I disagree. Anything their cousins have, they should have as well. If they're really just a raider fleet, then they and the CE should jsut be limited to escorts and light cruisers all the way.

Offline EasyPrey

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2009, 01:36:24 PM »
At the era then, ships were classified by gun size than hull size. 11 inch guns were still classified as battleship weaponry and the heaviest of cruisers never went beyond 8". Hence they can still be considered battleships.

The twenties and early thirties (Deutschland was laid down 1929 and comissioned 1933) were the era of the Washington Treaty, i.e. ships were classified by hull size and gun size. The Treaty navies were only allowed a certain number of cruiser hulls, and only a smaller number of those were actually allowed to use 8" guns, the rest had to use 6" guns at max.

The point is: The German Reichsmarine was not a Washington Treaty navy at all. The German navy, as nearly everything else in Germany at the time, was limited by the Treaty of Versailles; in short the Reichsmarine wasn't allowed to develop new weapon systems and couldn't have ships larger than 10,000 ts.

The Deutschland class was planned as something like battleships though; at least the ships used the hull letters A, B and C for battleships while being built. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were hulls D and E, Bismarck was F, Tirpitz G, the six improved battleships of Plan Z (so called 'H-class') were H through N (there was no I) and the three battlecruisers of Plan Z would have been O, P and Q.


True but I rather think development of ship survivability fell by the wayside. Ship designers were thinking cost rather than actually making the ships survive such ship killing weaponry.

Think about the German studies on battleship survivability that culminated in the (purely hypothetical) Schlachtschiff 1944 (or H-44): A battleship so heavily armoured that it just might survive bomb hits to the deck. To be able to carry this amount of armour while still being useful (i.e. somewhat fast and manouverable) the ships would have had to be enormous: About 360 meters in length, 50 meters beam, draft just short of 14 meters and up to 130,000 tons of displacement.

Survivability fell by the wayside because it would simply not have been reasonable to build a ship able to withstand these weapons; cost is just a part of this.



@topic:
First of all we should look at the reason why any navy uses warships of differing sizes:

  • Escorts, i.e. destroyers and frigates, are just that: Escort ships. Fast and manouverable, but hardly self-sufficient, they protect the heavy hitters from anything that is able to use their lacking manouverability against them.
  • Cruisers are scouting vessels. They have speed and range on their side to pinpoint the enemy's location, but are able to take out enemy cruisers and escort ships if necessary; nowhere near the fighting and standing power of battleships, of course, because that's just not what they're built for.
  • Battleships are heavy hitters, and the means by which any 'government' is able to project its power outward of its area of influence. Slow and cumbersome, but much more able to dish it out and take it than any other class of warship. Useless without scouts and escorts, though, and prohibitively expensive to build and maintain.


So, do the Dark Eldar need battleships? Do they need warships that are fearsome enough to discourage potential enemies from challenging them by their presence alone? Do they need warships able to take on the battleships of other powers one-on-one? Do they need warships that only come into their own in full sized fleet engagements?
I guess not.


What about the other Eldar factions?

Do the Craftworld Eldar need battleships?
The craftworld fleets are there to protect the craftworld from enemy attacks. Seeing that the location of the craftworlds is more or less secret as well as changing constantly protecting the craftworld mostly amounts to clearing its path of dangerous stuff (debris, space hulks, the like) and acting as the scalpel cutting away at the threads of fate wielded by the Farseers.
Would they need battleships for this? IMHO they would need them rarely enough to at least make the effort of building and maintaining them a doubtful one. The Eldar being a dying race and a battleship needing thousands of crew members that would be at risk of losing their lives from the loss of one ship doesn't make it better.


Do the Eldar Corsairs need battleships?
Seeing that they are corsairs, i.e. raiders similar to the Dark Eldar, it makes you wonder what they would want with a battleship, right?
Now, try to look at it through the eyes of a Farseer: The future might hold the need for fleet engagements (disabling a battlefleet heading for the craftworld being the most obvious possibility). But you loathe the prospect of sending thousands upon thousands of Eldar from your craftworld to their death, even if you know it might be necessary. The alternative, of course, would be to send someone else; preferably someone capable (so non-Eldar are out of the question), but expendable. Someone who would happily die to save your craftworld, but whose demise would not be mourned.
Someone coming to mind? ;)
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Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2009, 10:22:51 PM »
The twenties and early thirties (Deutschland was laid down 1929 and comissioned 1933) were the era of the Washington Treaty, i.e. ships were classified by hull size and gun size. The Treaty navies were only allowed a certain number of cruiser hulls, and only a smaller number of those were actually allowed to use 8" guns, the rest had to use 6" guns at max.

The point is: The German Reichsmarine was not a Washington Treaty navy at all. The German navy, as nearly everything else in Germany at the time, was limited by the Treaty of Versailles; in short the Reichsmarine wasn't allowed to develop new weapon systems and couldn't have ships larger than 10,000 ts.

You've just proven that battleships, the German ones anyway, were determined by gun size and not hull size.

Think about the German studies on battleship survivability that culminated in the (purely hypothetical) Schlachtschiff 1944 (or H-44): A battleship so heavily armoured that it just might survive bomb hits to the deck. To be able to carry this amount of armour while still being useful (i.e. somewhat fast and manouverable) the ships would have had to be enormous: About 360 meters in length, 50 meters beam, draft just short of 14 meters and up to 130,000 tons of displacement.

Survivability fell by the wayside because it would simply not have been reasonable to build a ship able to withstand these weapons; cost is just a part of this.

But German research at the time was assuming the use of steel, which is the common material for armor. These days, with the advancements in materials research and development, Titanium, Ceramics and carbon based armor offer another alternative which would beat the weight yet offer comparable amount of protection. Cost then becomes the motivating factor here.

Offline EasyPrey

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2009, 03:17:54 AM »
You've just proven that battleships, the German ones anyway, were determined by gun size and not hull size.

The Deutschland class were the largest ships the Germans were allowed to have at the time, so of course they called their successors battleships; the ships themselves were called 'cuirassé' in the Versailles Treaty, which roughly translates to 'Panzerschiff' in German and 'armoured ship' in English. And that is what the class was called in Germany: Panzerschiff.

If the defining trait of German battleships would have been gun size they would either have called both the Deutschland class and the Scharnhorst class the same, i.e. either Panzerschiff or Schlachtschiff (='battleship'), as both used the same caliber in their main armament; in reality the former were called Panzerschiff until they were re-classified as heavy cruisers in 1940 and the latter were called Schlachtschiff from the moment they were laid down for the second time forward.

But German research at the time was assuming the use of steel, which is the common material for armor. These days, with the advancements in materials research and development, Titanium, Ceramics and carbon based armor offer another alternative which would beat the weight yet offer comparable amount of protection. Cost then becomes the motivating factor here.

'Comparable amount of protection' in this case means dubious protection against 5,000 lbs 'Tallboy' bombs. You could get this with less effort today, that's right.

Problem is: Today there is conventional weaponry that is far more destructive than Tallboys were. So you'd need more protection today than you would have needed in the 40s, which would nullify the advantage of today's far more advanced armour materials.
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Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2009, 07:24:33 AM »
'Comparable amount of protection' in this case means dubious protection against 5,000 lbs 'Tallboy' bombs. You could get this with less effort today, that's right.

Problem is: Today there is conventional weaponry that is far more destructive than Tallboys were. So you'd need more protection today than you would have needed in the 40s, which would nullify the advantage of today's far more advanced armour materials.

But the problem is there were no tests to confirm whether or not the advantage would be nullified. I would think the armor of the last battleships of the Iowa class would have taken the advent of a missile hit the scale of a Tomahawk or maybe even some of the larger ones carried by the Russians.

As for the Tallboys, the US battleships have enough anti-air defences that the RAF bombers would be toast even before they got to the point where they could drop their bombs. Tallboys are good against stationary targets. Against moving targets which actually shoot back, I think the effectiveness becomes mitigated a lot.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 07:26:17 AM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline marengo

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2009, 12:19:47 PM »
Admiral_d_Artagnan said
"At the era then, ships were classified by gun size than hull size. 11 inch guns were still classified as battleship weaponry and the heaviest of cruisers never went beyond 8". Hence they can still be considered battleships. Still quite effective at sinking ships, especially merchant hulls. Again, the fact that they did use them is more important here".

I am afraid I don't agree. Costal defense ships and monitors in that era often had 15"-18" guns but no one ever suggested they were battleships.

The Kriegsmarine classification of Panzerschiff, (what the allies called pocket battleship) identified a ship not able to stand in the line of battle.

However, WWII history, although facination is not really overly relevant to a Games Workshop future universe so I will now shut up on the matter.

Offline Xisor

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2009, 07:23:22 PM »
For the DE, like the bigger stuff in Epic which the community ran with, the reasoning for a 'bigger' DE ship is that it'd be more of a base than a 'battleship'. It represents a vast amount of resources, but it's still only one ship. In terms of value, it's best hope would be in projecting the Dark Eldar safely at souls far beyond the webway.

In terms of technology and feasibility, I'd really say it's neither here nor there. Fluff-justification could easily be written for or against it, so in terms of expanding ideas I'm keen to go for the 'for' position. In essence it'd be a big mobile city in itself, it wouldn't be risked willy nilly, but to represent in in BFG terms I'd happily permit it thematically as a DE BB. In terms of rules abuse and themes for fleets...? Well, BFG is a bit disjointed at the moment, so I'm happy to simply let it pass if it's a cool model and even only vaguely-alright rules.

Offline RayB HA

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2009, 02:55:21 PM »
Admiral_d_Artagnan,

CE do 'deny' territory as their craftworld passes through the area. (Note: some how crafworlds move really really really fast if only in normal space, as in faster than light fast, anyone know how?) Also exodite worlds and certain worlds of importance will be protected. Unless Bieltan in which case conquer away!

A DE GC would be an awesomely powerful ship, easily capable of the base function you mentioned. But would benefit from having a small flying base and better manoeuvrability than a BB.

Cheers,

RayB





 
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When I joined the Corp we didn't have any fancy smancy tanks! We had sticks! Two sticks and a rock for an entire platoon, and we had to share the rock!

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2009, 10:29:31 PM »
Admiral_d_Artagnan,

CE do 'deny' territory as their craftworld passes through the area. (Note: some how crafworlds move really really really fast if only in normal space, as in faster than light fast, anyone know how?) Also exodite worlds and certain worlds of importance will be protected. Unless Bieltan in which case conquer away!

"Deny" is different from "holding" territory.

A DE GC would be an awesomely powerful ship, easily capable of the base function you mentioned. But would benefit from having a small flying base and better manoeuvrability than a BB.

Cheers,

RayB

So make the Void Stalker into a GC. Again, any logic which makes room for the existence of the Void Stalker applies to the Dark Eldar. Maneuverability and a smaller base would have made it much better fit for Eldar as well. The Void Stalker could have easily been created as a GC but no, they made it into a battleship. So DE should have one as well. Really, I do not see any issue here.

What is this? More Eldar loving? Only now it's more specific to plain Eldar? Eldar can have their battleship but the DE can't?

Offline fracas

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2009, 02:40:58 AM »
none of the eldars are interested in "territories" per se enough to maintain battleships.

and xisor is right, the fluff is flexible enough to allow or deny any particular eldar factions with BB

i think the Voidstalker precedence was a bad one. i didn't like it when it first came out and i still think it is awkward. However, since its introduction it has become very popular to field one. thus why should all the fleets have as a centerpiece a BB?

but i do agree that BC fits better with eldars than BB.

down grade the voidstalker
build/add a DE BC.

Offline RayB HA

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2009, 02:02:00 AM »
Admiral_d_Artagnan:  "Deny" is different from "holding" territory.

Indeed it is! In fact that's what makes the CE list quite awkward to represent, it's not really a raiding fleet or a full fleet.

In a campaign Crafworld Eldar shouldn't be able to gain the usual resource points from a world but should be able to take part in ALL of the scenarios. Including both sides of a planetary assault!

With this in mind CE could have a BB at a stretch for these larger fleet engagments.

Then DE could get away with a GC for an extremely successful cabal and EC should only really have cruiser at the largest.

Cheers,

RayB
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Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2009, 10:57:03 PM »
Admiral_d_Artagnan:  "Deny" is different from "holding" territory.

Indeed it is! In fact that's what makes the CE list quite awkward to represent, it's not really a raiding fleet or a full fleet.

In a campaign Crafworld Eldar shouldn't be able to gain the usual resource points from a world but should be able to take part in ALL of the scenarios. Including both sides of a planetary assault!

With this in mind CE could have a BB at a stretch for these larger fleet engagments.

Then DE could get away with a GC for an extremely successful cabal and EC should only really have cruiser at the largest.

Cheers,

RayB

And DE would need a battleship in case their homeworld is attacked. A battleship is also something a raider can use especially in space since space is so vast that a battleship raider could actually be more efficient than a cruiser raider in that it can stay out longer and raid more shipping as well as bigger shipping and bring back more monkeighs and their sissy cousins in the holding pens on the ship. Bigger experiments and torture labs too.

So it all boils down to this. Since even you admit that the CE can have the VS even at a stretch in larger games (though I never see that happen with the VS being taken in 1k to 1.5k games), the DE should be able to have it too. Whether we like it or not, the VS has opened the bottle and because it exists even if it is contradictory itself, why should we deny the DE their battleship?

Offline RayB HA

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2009, 04:20:20 PM »
Even the CE? They have crafworlds, the resources and possibly some 'predicted' need for them.

Then DE are the 2nd needy and EC (corsairs) are last.

If you want more labs and holding pens just have more ships! This isn't some combat necessity.

DE defending their homeworld? Commorragh is in the webway, much like the other DE 'colonies', these would have to be a lot easier to defend than a conventional world. In any case the DE would have to band together to make such a ship purely for the extremely unlikely event that they were attacked! And then the ship would be stationed in Commarragh so you wouldn't see it on a BFG board anyway!

A DE GC would be crazy good, a match for most other BB's. It would also have a small base and better turning.

Cheers,

RayB
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Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2009, 01:15:47 AM »
Eldar could easily attack their home world in the webway. It's not as if there were no bad blood between them. If they have enough BBs then some could be stationed near Commoragh and the others can go raiding.

Again, you don't want Dark Eldar to have BBs, then knock the Eldar VS down to GC status and I'd be fine with DE only getting the GC. If Eldar has BBs, then DE should have BBs. Again, nothing has been provided which precludes this.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 01:17:39 AM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »