BFG DE BB?

[fracas]

I don't agree.

Only in the most dire circumstances Corsair-Craftworld-Dark Eldar would fight against each other.

the fluff in the books would say eldar on eldar actions occurs

[RayB HA]

the fluff in the books would say eldar on eldar actions occurs
[/quote]

This is true, even CE on CE! But DE would never commit to a full blown war with an Eldar Craftworld, what would be the point? Skirmishes in a pirating fashion is all the DE really want to do. They prey on the 'weak', I doubt if they had to have a BB in a fight they were fighting someone weak. 

Cheers,

RayB

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I would. Makes the weak even more weaker. 

[fracas]

I don't agree.

Only in the most dire circumstances Corsair-Craftworld-Dark Eldar would fight against each other.

From BFG:Armada, page 51
"I met them once as saviour, when aboard the Deominius. Crippled and drifting, prey to the Wolfpacks they came from nowhere and drove out attackers away for reasons I could not, and cannot begin to comprehend. They come to me a second as a mystery, aboard the Eoppus, when first we battled them, only to watch as more of the same damned aliens arrived and tore the first apart. And, as I always feared having watched their madness that is their every act, I meed them again as my doom, for even now I watch as the Eldar strafe my flanks and hide from my guns ...." Captain Lucien of the Spirit of Onar, before its destruction by the Eldar at the Battle of Caldera.

i have seen other references to eldar on eldar actions.

[RayB HA]

Fracas, no one has said the Eldar don't fight one another only that it is very rare.

The DE are not on some crusade to wipe out their Craftworld Kin. They are selfish, materialistic freelancers only getting involved in larger conflicts when the reward is high enough. Killing Eldar isn't a reward it's a bonus!

Cheers,

RayB HA   

[fracas]

i would think DE offering of CE souls to Slaanesh would be far more fetching than monkeigh souls.


but back to original topic

even if it isn't to fight other eldars, De would benefit from a BB to enforce the cabal dominations rather than just raid

[RayB HA]

The DE aren't 'Chaos' Eldar, thier driving force isn't to sacrifice to Slaanesh.

Anyways, given that the DE only protect thier webway portals and webway 'colonies' a BB doesn't really seem flexible enough. BB's are there to lead a fleet, not to defend.

Cheers,

RayB 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Battleships are not necessarily there to lead.  There have been instances in real life where Battleships were doing convoy escort duties (English Battleships come to mind, Rodney if I am not mistaken is an example). Battleships have also been used as raiders as evidenced by the Bismarck and the small battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the pocket battleships Admiral Graf Spee, Admiral Scheer and Lutzow (formerly Deutschland). In the pacific, BBs were mainly relegated to Anti-Aircraft duties and it was the carrier forces which were mainly leading.

So I feel Dark Eldar can have their Battleship equivalents. Probably not as many so they only appear in the bigger pointage games. But they should be available nonetheless.

[horizon]

Read the Oberon and Despoiler entries... long range patrols on their own or with few escorts.

[marengo]

“Battleships have also been used as raiders as evidenced by the Bismarck and the small battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the pocket battleships Admiral Graf Spee, Admiral Scheer and Lutzow"

But not used successfully, Bismarck, Tirpits, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sank very few merchant ships. The "Pocket Battleships" were no such thing, originally classed as "Armoured Ships" and later "Heavy Cruisers" the "Pocket Battleship" nomenclature was just allied propaganda, and they sank a lot less merchant ships than U-boats or auxiliary cruisers anyway.

I still say that DE do not need a BB and it's inclusion goes well against the fluff.

[RayB HA]

If a DE BB was designed for defence why not simply make a space station similar to a spire! Actually with the limitations of larger ships travelling through the webway a BB would only be able to defend the larger portals.
For a race as dependant on webway travel as the Eldar, BB’s seem like a really crazy option. They can travel through the warp but it seems like a huge risk for an unnecessary ship.

The Voidstalker kicks ass but only because of its additional range and fire arcs. If actually targeted a Voidstalker will crumple like paper like any other Eldar cap ship, the only difference is that it will suffer more crits on its way down.

Cheers,

RayB

**Rant**

BFG is a naval game but I would have to say (for the most part) that its theme was pre 20th century (broadsides and all that). In any case in our naval history BB's are kind of obsolete being inefficient and quite vulnerable. The development of ship killing weaponry over defence became quite overwhelming not to mention the lack of any role for a BB as aircraft replace the need for long range guns.

Anyways back to BFG! BB’s will patrol with a hand full of escorts or what not but I’m inclined to imagine this as the exception or even part of an escalating engagement. BB’s aren’t used for defence, they are defended!

However there are exceptions, I would say that fleet carriers are primarily defensive as they can hold position pouring out attack craft from a distance (in my mind these aren’t true BB’s though).

**I’m really sorry for ranting**

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

But not used successfully, Bismarck, Tirpits, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sank very few merchant ships.

Regardless, they were used in such roles. That is the point. Bismarck may not have sunk merchant ships but Scharnhorst and Gneisenau certainly did. Tonnage was around 115,000 tons for 22 ships. Not as much as U Boats but sink them they did and it was more Hitler's unfamiliarity with Navy operations, being a control freak in not giving his Navy the freedom to do their operations and worry about losing ships that minimized the danger rather than the Royal Navy itself.

The "Pocket Battleships" were no such thing, originally classed as "Armoured Ships" and later "Heavy Cruisers" the "Pocket Battleship" nomenclature was just allied propaganda, and they sank a lot less merchant ships than U-boats or auxiliary cruisers anyway.

At the era then, ships were classified by gun size than hull size. 11 inch guns were still classified as battleship weaponry and the heaviest of cruisers never went beyond 8". Hence they can still be considered battleships. Still quite effective at sinking ships, especially merchant hulls. Again, the fact that they did use them is more important here.

I still say that DE do not need a BB and it's inclusion goes well against the fluff.

What fluff? If that's your reason, then Eldar shouldn't get their Void Stalkers. They're as much a corsair fleet as their DE counterpart. Even the craftworld Eldar. They already are in the twilight of their existence. They basically hide and do that hit and runs. They do not need battleship scale ships in that case.

The question is this: if the DE's weak and sissy Eldar kin can have a battleship, why shouldn't the DE, who are vain enough to know they are their Eldar kins' betters, not have one of their own. If anything, their envy would make sure they have one for themselves.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

If a DE BB was designed for defence why not simply make a space station similar to a spire! Actually with the limitations of larger ships travelling through the webway a BB would only be able to defend the larger portals.
For a race as dependant on webway travel as the Eldar, BB’s seem like a really crazy option. They can travel through the warp but it seems like a huge risk for an unnecessary ship.

If that's your reasoning, then get rid of the Eldar Void Stalker. Same reasoning as above. What's good for the gander must be good for the goose. They're both one race with differing political beliefs but I do not believe those differences are enough to extend to ship types. As I mentioned in the post above, envy is enough reason for DE to have one since their cousins do have one.

The Voidstalker kicks ass but only because of its additional range and fire arcs. If actually targeted a Voidstalker will crumple like paper like any other Eldar cap ship, the only difference is that it will suffer more crits on its way down.

Cheers,

RayB

It's not DE's fault if they build sturdier ships than their Eldar cousins.

**Rant**

BFG is a naval game but I would have to say (for the most part) that its theme was pre 20th century (broadsides and all that). In any case in our naval history BB's are kind of obsolete being inefficient and quite vulnerable. The development of ship killing weaponry over defence became quite overwhelming not to mention the lack of any role for a BB as aircraft replace the need for long range guns.

True but I rather think development of ship survivability fell by the wayside. Ship designers were thinking cost rather than actually making the ships survive such ship killing weaponry. And until such a time that a ship bristling with heavy and light missile weaponry comes into existence, battleships will lack roles. In theory, such a ship can exist. Instead of turrets with guns, they would have a huge missile locker with heavy protection from missile hits itself. The Kirov was the closest thing to come to it.

Anyways back to BFG! BB’s will patrol with a hand full of escorts or what not but I’m inclined to imagine this as the exception or even part of an escalating engagement. BB’s aren’t used for defence, they are defended!

However there are exceptions, I would say that fleet carriers are primarily defensive as they can hold position pouring out attack craft from a distance (in my mind these aren’t true BB’s though).

**I’m really sorry for ranting**

Well in space, a raider battleship wouldn't worry too much about attack craft anyway. It's just too big. No race can patrol that much volume in space unlike planetside where you have a finite area of operations. So I believe in space, the doctrine would be different and battleships, especially raiding battleships, would be very effective since they can choose the manner of their operations on when and where to strike unlike those tied to a fleet infrastructure. DE would excel at this.

[fracas]

of the three eldar factions in BFG, i think fluffwise in descending order Craftworld, Dark Eldar, then Corsairs would need a BB. Yet it is the Corsairs that has a BB and none other.



btw, I know DE are not Chaos Eldars, but they do, at least in the older fluff, sacrifice souls and slaves to Slaaneesh

[RayB HA]

Admiral_d_Artagnan,

The Voidstalker is penalised for its size by only being available in large raiding fleets. This represents its restricted access of the webway, it's rarity and more obviously helps balance the damned thing!

CE are far more likely to build BB's than DE and they only have a few Voidstalkers, which always end up in the hands of pirates! 

I personally would like to see the EC and CE being represented in a similar manner to that of Ork Pirates and the Waaaagh list. Basically adding new classes and making them act like a normal fleet!

DE on the other hand can only really be a Raiding fleet. They don't secure territory (well, nothing like a system or subsector!) and they don't hang around in hard to thrive systems.

A DE GC (similar to the void dragon) would be a much welcome addition to the DE list, but nothing bigger! The pre-fall BB idea is still awesome but as I mentioned before it would have to be a character ship. 

Cheers,

RayB