September 14, 2024, 08:13:21 AM

Author Topic: BFG DE BB?  (Read 29940 times)

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2009, 06:55:24 PM »
AH well, the Void Stalker exists only because of that cool Void Stalker which single handdidly took on an Ork hulk.

For me the DE may have a battleship. A fast battleship. Get it?

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2009, 10:21:08 PM »
That's what I just said!  :P

Pre-Fall BB Character ship! Normal centre piece would be a GC.

Cheers,

RayB

No, there is a difference. In your case, you want a pre-fall character battleship. In my case, it is just pre-fall battleship, much like the near- to pre-heresy battleships like the Emperor and Apocalypse which existed at the time the heresy occured. The DE battleships are not in any way character ships and do exist in number albeit in smaller numbers than usual.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 10:27:57 PM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline RayB HA

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2009, 12:30:34 AM »
In terms of official background I don't think there have been any DE BB's mentioned. However I can see it as possible if it were a Pre-Fall BB. The reason why it would have to be a Character ship is simply because it would be too good a ship to include in a raiding fleet!

And once again DE should only have a raiding fleet.

Cheers,

Ray Bell
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Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2009, 12:41:26 AM »
Again, I don't think it would be too good, especially if you put in limits on how one can be taken. The VS is clearly TOO good AND it exists in what is supposed to be a Corsair fleet which is a raider fleet AND can be included in a 1000 point fleet no less. C'mon Ray, you're reaching here.

Offline RayB HA

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2009, 02:51:47 AM »
I'm not reaching! I really don't think the Void Stalker should be in the Corsair fleet either!

It's not as if I hate DE or anything, they just shouldn't have a BB in their competetive fleet list.

What's wrong with a GC (or fast/pocket BB..) as a flagship for a Raiding fleet? Seems quite generous!

Cheers,

RayB



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Offline marengo

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2009, 09:38:06 AM »
I don't think Ray is reaching here.
The ONLY argument I am hearing for a DE BB is.

"The VS exists (correctly or not) so the DE should have one".

To a certain extent, of course, the whole thing is academic. GW are not going to produce a model or rules for a DE battleship.

Gaming groups can, of course,  have their own house rules, they can have DE battleships, space marine grand cruisers, imperial fast cruisers, anything they like but it is never going to be official and useable in tournaments and opponents can always refuse to allow them.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2009, 12:18:44 PM »
Every reason Ray and you have provided for DE not to have battleships have not been valid. Yes, I point out the existence of the VS as a reason enough for DEs to have battleships. It doesn't even matter that GW is not providing a model at the moment but that does NOT mean they can't provide a battleship in the future. Orks didn't have battleships before. now they have one. Eldar didn't have battleships before either. Then they were given one. And so I would want DE to get one officially.

What's wrong with the DE getting a GC? Nothing except most likely it has 2 HP less and the weapons will not be as potent as that of a true battleship and it requires DE to use up the same conditions to get it as a battleship. What's wrong with the DE having battleships? For some reason, Ray is giving reasons which are very contradictory. Eldar is already competitive without the VS and yet they still got it. THAT is being VERY generous. So I don't understand what's this competitive stuff or generosity that DE can only have a GC is about. So DE players should be happy they can only get a GC instead of a full fledged battleship while their clearly superior Eldar kin can get one. Now that is one of the most unfair situation I will ever see. You may not hate DE, Ray but I am seeing more of that unreasonable Eldar loving. Why not do this experiment: every point you made about DE not having battleships, replace the term "DE" with "Eldar". Why shouldn't Eldar just have a GC? Eldar should not have a BB in their competitive fleet list. Eldar should not have a full warfleet...and so on and so forth. Works either way.

If you don't think the VS should be in the Eldar Corsair fleet, then fix it and along the way, fix the access to it. As it is, it's too easy to get it in play. You want DE to only have GCs well by then make the VS a GC at best. I keep saying it again and again, what's good for the gander must be good for the goose.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 12:25:20 PM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline marengo

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2009, 12:47:35 PM »
I don't see much point in continuing this discussion as it is not really going anywhere. The same points are being raised time and time again

If GW ever do bring out a DE BB then I will happily allow my opponent to use it if they want. I won't be having one in my DE fleet however. Until that happy (or unhappy depending on your point of view) day however, I rest content with it's absence.

Offline Xisor

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2009, 06:09:32 AM »
The Dark Eldar are far fewer in number than their less evil kin and are concentrated in the Webway at their 'homeworld' Commarragh and a handful of other webway colonies. The population of the DE come from descendants that survived the fall escaping into the webway and from fallen Exodites.

I'm not convinced the DE are 'far fewer'. The trouble, I find, with this line of argument is much the same as is in Epic. 'The Dark Eldar are small'.

Are they?

Commorragh

We've no idea how big it is. A city. A few thousand Dark Eldar? A few hundred thousand? A million? A billion?

How do the DE even procreate anyway. Which DE in their right mind, providing their gestation works at all similar to primate gestation, would submit to pregnancy and voluntarily incapacitate themselves for a while?

Who would dedicate themselves to educating the young?

The DE society works best, IMO, if they've established a massive baby-factory system. Hundreds, if not thousands of babies produced per day. Most are simply eaten, as soulfood. Some are, y'know, kept, or accelerated to adolescence. Their minds might be programmed with didactic implants or techniques?

If the DE have any massive way of sustaining their population (and indeed I think it's best if Commoragh has a burgeoning population), then it's gonna be huge.

However, their society is incredibly insular. Why raid with dozens of DE to claim a thousand souls when you could raid with ten thousand DE (say, a warfleet) and stand a fine chance of, perhaps, claiming a billion? (Imagine a 'warfleet' sized assembly of ships simply 'dissecting' a Hiveworld and all its defences..., not a 'claim' of the entire planet, but incapacitating the whole damned thing...)

Fluff Support

I think it's worth restressing that many of our popular 'beliefs' about the races might be widely spread, but they're not necessarily accurate, necessary or sensible. Case in point: Commoragh being awesomely huge makes much more sense to me than a (relative to the other races) teensy DE population scraping about in the odd ends of the Webway...

In that regard, the Eldar items like Void Stalker, DE BB, DE GC and so forth can very viably be pre-fall artefacts. The Eldar race was destroyed (say 99.9%?) and in doing so the Eldar civilisation fell with it. But what about all the shipyards, all the fleets, the relics, the aeon-old weapons caches? I see no reason for the DE, CWE and CE not to have pilfered massive amounts of pre-fall Eldar tech. Given the existence of Craftworlds, I could happily believe that DE access to BBs comes from pre-fall technology.

Certainly, we don't even know if the Dark Eldar even build their own ships anymore. The whole damned lot could be pre-fall tech. No need to 'force it to be a character ship'. These are techno-cannibals living in the hollow carcass of their former glory, and they're still terrifying.

The argument for the BB isn't "The others have a Void Stalker" it is: "It might be bloody cool and afford an extra layer of 'ooh, that's interesting' to the game".

The argument against is "I can't concieve of a sensible reason for the VS, ergo no to the DE too". Well, that's an horrid misrepresentation, but the basic 'anti-BB' stance is that big ships are silly for what are essentially raiding fleets. Sure, they are. I can't argue that on its own. The counterpoint, I feel, could happily be something as has been outlined above. The fluff can support it, and it certainly doesn't rule it out.

Offline RayB HA

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2009, 03:30:22 AM »
Firstly,

Admiral_d_Artagnan, I keep saying the Corsairs shouldn't have a BB!

Xisor, nice speculating :) (There's no approve smiley!).

Unfortunately the DE background is small, incomplete and out of date! It sucks but that's the way it is! I'm pretty miffed that the DE Codex hasn't been re-done ever!
As the reported attacks by DE are small (as these things go), I'm inclined to either assume that there aren't really that many DE (say a Billion) or that only a very tiny amount of DE take it upon themselves to be externally warlike. Imagine a submissive DE mass population with the cabals ruling over them, leaving the webway to basically go on safari.
Either way I don't see Dark Eldar massing full warfleets with BB's.

On Eldar procreation I thought that there was some sort of spiritual exchange from the parents at certain points throughout the years long pregnancy....It's probably 'novel' background though.

On overall population: if they have Craftworlds of planetary size (bigger than Pluto!  ;D) that contain even a sparsely populated civilisations you're looking at least billions. Trillions would be more 'real'. In the end though it's better to be vague with numbers and just focus on the actions of a race/culture.

Cheers,

RayB     
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Offline fracas

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2009, 07:24:29 PM »
fluff and background should enhance the game, rather than restrict it


i think all BFG fleets should have some thing to serve as a center piece and i think it would enhance the game

for a DE BB, why would it have to be an attack ship, why not a ship bristling with impalers for instance? a slave ship, to hold and gather slaves?

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2009, 10:05:31 PM »
Firstly,

Admiral_d_Artagnan, I keep saying the Corsairs shouldn't have a BB!

Cheers,

RayB    


And I keep pointing out: Fix it. You guys can do it. It shouldn't take that long and a simple FAQ entry should do (and an FAQ IS overdue already) until Armada comes out with Mk 1.5. At the same time, can you fix it so that it doesn't get around the battleship restrictions?

Offline Maverick

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2009, 11:24:58 AM »
Allow me to interject here with a snippet of self-promotion.

BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC: CHRONICLES will feature a Dark Eldar heavy cruiser!

In my personal opinion the Corsair fleet should never have received the Void Stalker.
The only Eldar battleship (if any) should have gone to the Craftworld Eldar.
I don't think that the Dark Eldar should warrant a battleship for the same reasons that the Eldar Corsairs shouldn't have one. Battleships are designed for prolonged engaugements which Dark Eldar & Eldar pirates are adversed to.
A heavy cruiser on the other hand lends enough support to strengthen the resolve of the fleet without overpowering it or lending itself to gross ficticious negligence.

Offline Sredni Vashtar

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2009, 08:30:37 PM »
They're both one race with differing political beliefs but I do not believe those differences are enough to extend to ship types.
the social differences described in the background would affect their relative abilities to actually build and maintain large ships in the first place, though.  i get the impression that the Dark Eldar don't go in much for serious engineering projects; they have better (or rather worse) things to be doing, and different Kabals would never pool their resources.  similarly, when you consider that their military MO is basically dictated by the need to capture as many slaves as possible, the resources necessary to maintain a battleship-sized craft in working order might be more than most Kabals would be willing to invest. 

at the end of the day, it's hard to see why the DE would want/need anything larger than their cruisers for the purposes they have in mind.

The DE fluff to be fair is incomplete and scattered across rulebooks and even studio written novels. Their relationship with Slaanesh is one of fear, most DE don't worship Slaanesh or offer sacrifice. In fact it apears that some DE 'consume' the souls of others, this could just be ritualistic but it sounds a pretty cool!  ;D   
i don't think there's any actual ritual involved; there doesn't need to be.  the DE's souls are already forfeit to Slaanesh; they need to torture and murder victims to extend their own lives.  the way it works is that the anguish they cause empowers Slaanesh, and in return they get to live a little longer.  so they don't "worship" or acknowledge Slaanesh as their "god", as such-- they have nothing to gain through closer alignment with Chaos, they can only hope to delay their inevitable damnation via lives devoted to torment and depravity.

Tallboys are good against stationary targets. Against moving targets which actually shoot back, I think the effectiveness becomes mitigated a lot.
IIRC it was Tallboy bombs that sank the Yamato.  granted, it's often attributed to the IJN's lousy damage control infrastructure, but it was clearly possible for fighter-bombers to hit and seriously damage the Yamato (on their first run, no less) in the first place.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG DE BB?
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2009, 09:02:29 PM »
the social differences described in the background would affect their relative abilities to actually build and maintain large ships in the first place, though.  i get the impression that the Dark Eldar don't go in much for serious engineering projects; they have better (or rather worse) things to be doing, and different Kabals would never pool their resources.  similarly, when you consider that their military MO is basically dictated by the need to capture as many slaves as possible, the resources necessary to maintain a battleship-sized craft in working order might be more than most Kabals would be willing to invest.  

The Eldar at this point in time when the race is fading away would also not be delving much into engineering projects anyway. It still doesn't address the fact that the battleship could exist from the time of the Eldar at their peak. Much more limited in access, yes but the battleship should exist.

at the end of the day, it's hard to see why the DE would want/need anything larger than their cruisers for the purposes they have in mind.

Why wouldn't they want it if the battleship exists? If I were a DE captain, I would. I would even take them off the other Kabals hands if they didn't want it.

Tallboys are good against stationary targets. Against moving targets which actually shoot back, I think the effectiveness becomes mitigated a lot.
IIRC it was Tallboy bombs that sank the Yamato.  granted, it's often attributed to the IJN's lousy damage control infrastructure, but it was clearly possible for fighter-bombers to hit and seriously damage the Yamato (on their first run, no less) in the first place.

The attack on the Yamato was a purely USN endeavor. No Tallboys were used and it was torpedoes which led to the Yamato's demise, especially since they only concentrated on one side of the ship. Tallboys took the Tirpitz out of the war, not the Yamato. Tallboys are good against stationary targets. Against moving targets, they won't do squat as proven by the B-17 attacks on naval ships.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 10:29:47 PM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »