Let's fix Battlefleet Bakka

[flybywire-E2C]

Its not so much the Empire, but isn't the gulf itself hard to traverse?
Either way, it is Kar Duniash' responsibility to figure it out, absolutely, either way.  Or they need to redistribute the segmentums.

I just think its ludicrous, now that I think about it, and believe it should be retconned entirely as a big forgeworld-level fluff oversight.

Edit:  Every map is a bit different, but it looks like Kar Duniash has a clear shot to Ultramar around the Gulf.
Warp routes being what they are though, I'm sure neither route is quite straight.

Without digging too deeply into the fluff materials because I'm off to bed, the reason why Bakka responded to this is because the warp between Kar Durniash and the Dominion of Ultramar was cut off over dozens of sectors by the Tyranids' "warp shadow." While Kar Durniash is normally closer, Bakka was the closest fleet of any significant size after the space between Kar Durniash and Ultramar was cut off. 

[lastspartacus]

Got it.  So due to unusual and emergency curcumstances that threatened the Imperium as a whole, and requiring a strong and decisive blow that only a segmentum fortress could issue, Bakka sent aid.  Fluff monsters satisfied

[Sigoroth]

What dont you like about the Apocalypse now, Sig?

The fact that it is a stand-off ship but you need to pass a command check in order to make use of it in this role. This isn't just a ld test (which I would still find onerous) but a command check, which means that you either place it higher in the order and thus have a greater likelihood of failing another command check further down the line or you place it lower (after carriers say) and thus have a greater likelihood of failing it (which is why I used the 2/3 passes in my comparison example against the Victory, even though it should be higher than this).

The actual consequence of firing at long range is insignificant. Firstly it only kicks in when you're over 45cm away and then you'll have anywhere between 12 to 24 dice to try to repair it and even if you don't repair the crit there's still a pretty good chance that the enemy will not be able to take advantage of the downfall, since they'd need to put a BM in contact to make you count as a defence, assuming you fail to repair, and even then they've got to have enough WBs within range of a ship that hangs out in your back line to take advantage of the situation.

No, the actual penalty for firing at long range is now a joke, since you don't take damage anymore. The biggest downside of the rule is the fact you have to pass the Ld test. This is silly. The ship is expensive and slow and wastes points in its prow armour and NC. It also doesn't get to use its off-side weaponry like most IN ships. This should be made up for by very strong long ranged firepower. The dorsal weaponry is piss weak. It should be strength 9 WBs at the very least. The lances are strong enough, but can only sometimes fire at range. This isn't good enough. I get it that it's hard to get that many lances to fire at long range. Fine. But the extra energy drain could more aptly be represented by a BM being placed in contact, dropping the ships speed and shields temporarily. This makes the downside of long ranged fire (ie, >30cm) actually meaningful, while not being as severe as the original. Instead of 1 pt of permanent hull damage you take 1 pt of damage against shields. Which the enemy could potentially turn into 1 pt of hull damage if they happened to be firing on the Apoc. Similarly, instead of a severe movement penalty (-10cm) that you'll very rarely have to worry about at all, but will occasionally be crippling you get a more constant -5cm penalty.

[horizon]

Sig,
with the knowledge you are only certain of 100% lance shot at wanted range being 30cm then the NC/prow isn't wasted.

Because at 60cm you can choose to take the Ld test or the Scatter Nova.

Being abeam 5+ or prow on 6+ isn't much of a difference vs weapon batteries.

[Sigoroth]

Sig,
with the knowledge you are only certain of 100% lance shot at wanted range being 30cm then the NC/prow isn't wasted.

Because at 60cm you can choose to take the Ld test or the Scatter Nova.

Being abeam 5+ or prow on 6+ isn't much of a difference vs weapon batteries.

No, it's completely wasted. If you're using the Apoc as an approach vessel then it must be with the thought in mind to break the enemy lines. The Apocalypse simply does not have the speed to justify this role. Simply take a Retribution instead. Also, there is no way a single NC is worth 6 lances. It's not even worth the 4 lances on the Victory. Hell, if you wanted to use NC that much then you could buy a much much cheaper ship to do so. It is terribly inefficient to use a stand-off battleship in a closing role to use a NC that you could get for 175 pts less.

[lastspartacus]

so turn the prow/side arc line right between two ships...

[Vaaish]

I think Bakka may see the rise of the viable IN CL fleet. I was fiddling around today to get a list for an upcoming game for a friend who likes to have a good bit of maneuverability and ended up with this:

2x Vengeance
2x Armageddons +turret
2x Endurance +turret
2x Endeavour +turret
Admiral +reroll

To me, this seems a fairly AC resistant fleet. It'll be a bit easy to shoot at the CL with their 1 shield, but it does put 8 capital ships on the table and two of them are near battleship level. I could even swap out the vengeance for Exorcists and have 8LB making this list almost entirely impervious to AC and difficult to target with torpedoes. All four light cruisers have 4 turrets and every thing else has three. That's coupled with a good selection of long range lances, torpedoes, and 60cm batteries.

Any thoughts?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Vengeance? Aren't Vengeances considered Battlecruisers in an IN fleet for the purposes of taking one?

[Vaaish]

I believe so. I realized that as I was driving home from work a few minutes ago. When I made the list I calculated up the number of ships I needed to get both vengeance taken in under reserves but forgot to check for the CB slots because I'd started building the list under the Armageddon rules before deciding bakka would work better for my purposes.

Retribution
2x Armageddons +turret
2x Endurance +turret
3x Endeavour +turret
Admiral+reroll

That should make the fleet legal

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Good enough list. I might go with the Victory and torps though as well as try to sneak in a Mercury so the LCs can have cap ship support. Might be a good change of pace.

[Vaaish]

yeah, I did think about it. Gains me an extra turret and maybe a NC but that's about it and I've got a retribution built already. Plus I wanted to test out a marine list and I figured that even more lances would be a bit over the top.

[Valhallan]

funny. i just wrote up a similar fleet last night. ended up going 'geddon instead of bakka to reserve in 2 CG's... though i play at 2000 points.