Let's fix Battlefleet Bakka

[RCgothic]

Firstly, I was suggesting a flat 45cm range including 45cm range dorsals, which I think some may not have picked up on - specifically better than the other BCs in the 30cm-45cm band, but worse in the others.

Secondly, Zhukov was referring to the Mercury, not the Armageddon - 10 lances total might just equate to this "additional firepower" it supposedly has but doesn't.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I did pick up on it. It's why I said Str 6 lances (in one broadside).

As for Mercury, assuming it was the ship being pointed to, fluff has it that it has battleship sized power plant. if that's the case then there is no issue with powering a lot of lances unlike an uprated Gothic.

[RCgothic]

even so, ten@45 is not the same as 12@60 plus additional weaponry.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Problem is it's 12@60 Weapon Batteries, not 12@60 Lances. WBs do not take as much from the power plant and again, a battleship rated power plant would be sufficient to handle the load esp if its mostly WBs.

[lastspartacus]

You know...why did Bakka send a massive fleet to aid Ultramar?  Doesn't it have its own segmentum to worry about?  What was Kar Duniash doing?

[Masque]

You know...why did Bakka send a massive fleet to aid Ultramar?  Doesn't it have its own segmentum to worry about?  What was Kar Duniash doing?

I've wondered this a few times.  I just assume there were warp storms or some such.  And don't forget, just because two places are physically far doesn't mean there isn't a fairly short warp route and vice versa.

[lastspartacus]

True, but its in entirely different segmentums.  Bakka is close to the border, but its still a quarter-galaxy away.

I seriously wonder if it wasn't a huge typo or fluff ignorance.  A Segmentum would not send 200 precious warships to an entirely different segmentum without the other Segementum being totally incapable of dealing with the problem.  Thats a significant chunk of the segmentum battlefleet right there, and it would leave it much less capable of normal defense and patrol.  We all know that the Imperium is filled with self-serving groups, if that even needs to be mentioned outside of tactical head-scratching.

[BaronIveagh]

It's because there's something called the Tau empire between Kar-Duniash and Ultramar.  Bakka's ships would have a straight run, whereas Ultima segmentum would have ot bypass the Damocles Gulf. 

[Eldanesh]

That's nonsense: the whole story existed long time before the Tau where introduced as a new race to the 40k background. Also the Tau "Empire" is just a tiny dot on the star map and i don't see a way how the tau could stop anyone bypassing their room via warp space.

And additionally: 200 imperial war ships would have wiped out the Tau in that time. Damokles-crusade warfleet had only 12 capitalships and nearly destroyed one of the Tau homworlds. At all the the crusade was only ended because of the tyranid treat.

[lastspartacus]

Its not so much the Empire, but isn't the gulf itself hard to traverse?
Either way, it is Kar Duniash' responsibility to figure it out, absolutely, either way.  Or they need to redistribute the segmentums.

I just think its ludicrous, now that I think about it, and believe it should be retconned entirely as a big forgeworld-level fluff oversight.

Edit:  Every map is a bit different, but it looks like Kar Duniash has a clear shot to Ultramar around the Gulf.
Warp routes being what they are though, I'm sure neither route is quite straight.

[Sigoroth]

Why are you all so keen on R30 broadside? That's rubbish on a CB. R45 would make it distinct from the other gunship CBs, specifically the best from R30-R45, whilst being slightly weaker at other ranges (a perfect fit for a 235pts CB!), without having oddities like a mix of R30 and R60 lances.

I do believe that with 45cm main gun range the CB Gothic would be a competitor with the Apocalypse. If the Apoc was more reliable (ie, could always shoot to 60cm) then it would compete less.

However, I think the main argument against the range upgrade is that it simply does not need it. The IN fleet is a line-breaking fleet by design. You close with the enemy, firing torps (and dorsal lances from CBs) on the way in and break their lines for a full broadside. For this role broadside range simply is not necessary. It doesn't mean to say that there is no utility in having extra range, and extra range on a lances is better, but range costs too much as far as I'm concerned. I would simply like an IN equivalent to the Murder/Hades relationship instead of all this faffing about with compulsory range upgrades. So at 210 pts just make a battlecruiser Gothic with +2L@60cmLFR dorsal.

[BaronIveagh]

That's nonsense: the whole story existed long time before the Tau where introduced as a new race to the 40k background. Also the Tau "Empire" is just a tiny dot on the star map and i don't see a way how the tau could stop anyone bypassing their room via warp space.

And additionally: 200 imperial war ships would have wiped out the Tau in that time. Damokles-crusade warfleet had only 12 capitalships and nearly destroyed one of the Tau homworlds. At all the the crusade was only ended because of the tyranid treat.

According to the 5e book's map, it's about 1/6th of the southern half of Ultima Segmentum.  And, I seem to recall a much different fight, where the IN discovered rather rudely that they had bitten off more then they could chew, the world in question being described as having defenses comparable to a Sector Capitol World.  Further, I seem to recal that it was actually a colony world of the second sphere expansion. 

In addition, please remember that warp travel is not in a straight line.  Some entire sectors are only reachable by rather esoteric means, being blocked off by warp storms, etc (see the Jericho Reach as an example of this).  The administratum would not re-designate the sectors or segmentums when the Imperium split in half, I doubt that they'd reshuffle them for something as minor as travel between two areas in the same segmentum being impossible.

[Zhukov]

You know...why did Bakka send a massive fleet to aid Ultramar?  Doesn't it have its own segmentum to worry about?  What was Kar Duniash doing?

It happened because GW says it happened. Please don't let this drain into some stupid fluff discussion of a fiction series that has hardly any real science, tactics, and strategy to it. If you want to do that, then start a different thread. Thank you.

Why are you all so keen on R30 broadside? That's rubbish on a CB. R45 would make it distinct from the other gunship CBs, specifically the best from R30-R45, whilst being slightly weaker at other ranges (a perfect fit for a 235pts CB!), without having oddities like a mix of R30 and R60 lances.

I do believe that with 45cm main gun range the CB Gothic would be a competitor with the Apocalypse. If the Apoc was more reliable (ie, could always shoot to 60cm) then it would compete less.

However, I think the main argument against the range upgrade is that it simply does not need it. So at 210 pts just make a battlecruiser Gothic with +2L@60cmLFR dorsal.

Well something to mention is the Apoc is not available to the Bakka list at present. So there is no competition except if you reserve the Gothic BC to another fleet (which is why I said no to reserving it out).

To you're second point. The Imperial Navy was designed with a theme. The Cruisers were to have 30cm range weapons with no dorsals, with a single option at getting a 45cm range broadsides (Tyrant). The BC's were to be 45cm range broadsides with 60cm dorsal lances with a single option at getting 60cm range broadsides (Overlord). The Battleships are to only have 60cm range weapons (with exceptions to 'older' vessels getting less range (the Apoc only half counts to this since it has the ability to extend it's ranges)). That being said, I feel the Gothic BC should have 45cm range broadside lances. In fact, I'm ok with giving it 60cm dorsal lances too, but maybe to get that, it would need the BB engine core to power it (with the exploding greatly chances that go with it).

-Zhukov

[Sigoroth]

Well something to mention is the Apoc is not available to the Bakka list at present. So there is no competition except if you reserve the Gothic BC to another fleet (which is why I said no to reserving it out).

Any list with access to both would see it compete with the Apocalypse due to the latter's poor balance. There's no reason to restrict a CB Gothic to this list, as it isn't anything that other IN lists wouldn't do anyway. Mind you, this isn't so much an argument against a 45cm range rather an indictment of the current Apocalypse.

To you're second point. The Imperial Navy was designed with a theme. The Cruisers were to have 30cm range weapons with no dorsals, with a single option at getting a 45cm range broadsides (Tyrant). The BC's were to be 45cm range broadsides with 60cm dorsal lances with a single option at getting 60cm range broadsides (Overlord). The Battleships are to only have 60cm range weapons (with exceptions to 'older' vessels getting less range (the Apoc only half counts to this since it has the ability to extend it's ranges)). That being said, I feel the Gothic BC should have 45cm range broadside lances. In fact, I'm ok with giving it 60cm dorsal lances too, but maybe to get that, it would need the BB engine core to power it (with the exploding greatly chances that go with it).

Given the exceptions this is not much of a theme. Particularly given the Mercury. There is no reason why a Gothic couldn't be refitted with extra dorsal guns. This would be a fast and dirty upgrade, compared to the Armageddon, benefiting from being relatively simple and quick. There is reason to suggest that extending the broadside range to even 45cm would be problematic. The extra range also does not fit with the IN overall theme of line breaking. On top of this the range upgrade is invariably too costly. If the Armageddon was 210 pts with the option to extend its range for 25 pts I simply wouldn't take the range upgrade. If you're using the range often enough to make it worth its cost then you're being sloppy.

So, in short, I think the extra range has always been redundant and too costly for all the IN line-breaking ships (Overlord, Retribution, Armageddon, Tyrant). There is reason to suggest that pushing range on masses of lances is hard. Therefore this is the best opportunity to finally do away with the overly expensive range upgrade.

[lastspartacus]

What dont you like about the Apocalypse now, Sig?