Let's fix Battlefleet Bakka

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

This would be my take for Bakka:

Battleships:
Oberon (dump the mandatory Rath+Emperor)
Invincible (I'd go with Invincible since it as part of the Bakka fluff but put the hp at 10)
Victory

Battlecruisers:
Mars
Mercury (needs tweaks, specifically torps instead of the NC then make it cheaper)
Overlord

Cruisers:
Dominator
Gothic
Lunar
Tyrant

Light Cruisers:
Endeavor
Endurance
Siluria

Escorts:
Cobra
Havoc
Sword
Viper

2 faster than usual ships. But if Nate wants a pirate hunting feel, there you have it.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Stop and consider though: is GW jeopardizing it's existing contract?  How much is that contract worth?  How far is GW willing to go to protect that contract?  GW is very conservative fiscally these days.  A bird in the hand really is worth two in the bush.

Depends on what is in the contract but even then, there's really no cost to GW nor to the new management, not unless the new management has a team in place making the changes which I doubt since Nate wouldn't be here asking for our input if they are. What event would cost either company millions if the changes were implemented? I don't think they have new models out yet. So any changes are still being made on paper (electronic paper at that) and so again, no cost yet other than what the new management paid for licensing the rights. GW will still hold onto the rights, you can be sure of that. So I don't see any situation yet where huge losses will happen.

[BaronIveagh]

Depends on what is in the contract but even then, there's really no cost to GW nor to the new management, not unless the new management has a team in place making the changes which I doubt since Nate wouldn't be here asking for our input if they are. What event would cost either company millions if the changes were implemented? I don't think they have new models out yet. So any changes are still being made on paper (electronic paper at that) and so again, no cost yet other than what the new management paid for licensing the rights. GW will still hold onto the rights, you can be sure of that. So I don't see any situation yet where huge losses will happen.

Dunno.  I know that the current license out on BFG's IP are worth several million pounds a year that GW does not have to lift a finger to profit from.  Right now they're just sitting back collecting checks.  

Serious alteration to the ships capabilities might void it.  I know that FFG holds the license for all BFG ship stats and names atm.  We've already seen their hand in the current FAQ so the idea that these limits come from their contractual relationship with GW is not that far fetched.

This would be my take for Bakka:

Battleships:
Oberon (dump the mandatory Rath+Emperor)
Invincible (I'd go with Invincible since it as part of the Bakka fluff but put the hp at 10)
Victory

Battlecruisers:
Mars
Mercury (needs tweaks, specifically torps instead of the NC then make it cheaper)
Overlord

Cruisers:
Dominator
Gothic
Lunar
Tyrant

Light Cruisers:
Endeavor
Endurance
Siluria

Escorts:
Cobra
Havoc
Sword
Viper

2 faster than usual ships. But if Nate wants a pirate hunting feel, there you have it.

Eh... it's not really BAD... but you're not getting much use out of the faster ships.  The Invicible and Vicky are good, but the Voss Trio and the Oberon make it feel like an Apoc list.  Particularly with marine reserves. 

The Havoc and the Siluria make Sword and Endeavour redundant.  Endurance.... eh... again, not a big fan of Voss ships in this list.  It's bad enough they turn up in the Bastion fleets list.  Putting them here just dilutes the flavor of Apoc and this list further. 

[Eldanesh]

Why, turrets didn't work the first time. This is why the FDT fluff made a degree of sense as it was an attempt to improve existing defenses rather then heap on more of the same.  Remember that 'turrets' is a catch all for dozens of different weapons systems, basically an abstraction to make the game simpler.  Logically, since the existing systems did little to help, they'd look into something new.

Background
I don't think that this fleet list represents battlefleet Bakka “Today” (999.M41). The presence of the Dominus Astra and Admiral Rath implies that the list represents battlefleet Bakka before or during the first tyranic war (~745.M41). So the “improved” turrets are no reaction to the tyranid menace, it is the tactical setup of Bakka ever since. Even if we assume that this list is from the “40k present time”, there are a lot of arguments against such a change.

a) The tyranids are “just another alien race”. We, the players know that they are something bigger, but from an ingame view they are “joe alien”: a race like a hundred other which the Imperium had annihilated during its existence. Keep in mind that after the battles of Circe/Macragge the Imperium believed that they had defeated the tyranids once and for all. Only after the apperance of Kraken (993.M41) and Leviathan (997.M41) they realised that there are many more of them. And you don't change your tacics against a opponent if you thing he is beaten already.

b) Imperials don't change their setups so easily. The templates are holy and sacred for the mechanicus. The Black Templars needed over hundred years that the Land Raider crusader was accepted by the mechanicus. I don't think that they change the template of a cruiser in such a short timeframe. Even if we asume that the changes took place directly after circe 250 years is very short by imperial standards. ^^

c) Imperial Command isn't very open minded, so to say. I think that “more of it” is a far more logical choice than “better equipment”. So if the turret defences were inferior it makes perfect sense that they just raised the numbers. “better eqipment” would be the tau solution to a specific problem, the Imperium usually prefers numbers over quality.


Gamewise
+1turrets works fine against any form of ordnance. I see the problem at another “frontline”: torpedos. You own as well as the enemys.

a) Your own. Without own AC the enemy just sends some Fighters on CAP and your Torps are useless. The logical choice is something what most players woill not like: you use more Ncs. This not only allows you to do some damage, it also has the advantage that you don't neen “reload ordnance” any more, so you are free to use other special orders instead.

b) enemy torpedos. As long as the enemy is in the front arc it'snot a big deal, the 6+ armour helps a lot. But if he somehow gets into your flank you have a problem. I know, this isn't unusual: its always a problem when someone gets into the flank of the “imperial phalanx”, but without AC the problem is bigger. Much bigger.
 
Possible Solutions:
Obvioulsy you need some AC. I tried out a game completely without AC, it just didn't work. As it would be boring to use two or even tree Mars in every game you should allow other carriers:
- the Jovian should be in
- you should allow the Dictator either as a 0-1 (or 1 per 1500 points) choice or you move him in the battlecruiser section. You can explain this by the fact that the Dictator is a rare ship in Bakka lists.
- another battlecruiser–carrier would be a nice thing. I'm tninking about a “Dictator battlecruiser”: a dictator with 45cm Batteries, and a s2@45cm lance for ~ 250 Points.

A more “exotic” idea is another NC variant: the HA wanted that the NC in this list isn't used as a piece of artillery. Instead it should be used in a more aggressive manner. How about this:
 
“Supernova” assault system
A Novacannon with 10-30cm Range. When you fire, roll the scatter dice and 2D6. One dice is the damage, the other is the scatter distance. The player can freely decide which dice is used for damage and which one scatter. In addition this NC variant can be fired while the ship is under special rules like BFI, AAF or CTNH.
This upgrade is for free, but 50% (rounded down) of the fleets NC's must be exchanged with this variant.
 
→ the idea is to avoid “long range NC Spam” on the one hand, and on the other hand give the Bakka fleet a potent short range weapon system on the other hand, what IMO fits better to a Big Gun/close combat fleet.

Thoughts?

[BaronIveagh]

Possible Solutions:
Obvioulsy you need some AC. I tried out a game completely without AC, it just didn't work. As it would be boring to use two or even tree Mars in every game you should allow other carriers:
- the Jovian should be in
- you should allow the Dictator either as a 0-1 (or 1 per 1500 points) choice or you move him in the battlecruiser section. You can explain this by the fact that the Dictator is a rare ship in Bakka lists.
- another battlecruiser–carrier would be a nice thing. I'm tninking about a “Dictator battlecruiser”: a dictator with 45cm Batteries, and a s2@45cm lance for ~ 250 Points.

A more “exotic” idea is another NC variant: the HA wanted that the NC in this list isn't used as a piece of artillery. Instead it should be used in a more aggressive manner. How about this:
 
“Supernova” assault system
A Novacannon with 10-30cm Range. When you fire, roll the scatter dice and 2D6. One dice is the damage, the other is the scatter distance. The player can freely decide which dice is used for damage and which one scatter. In addition this NC variant can be fired while the ship is under special rules like BFI, AAF or CTNH.
This upgrade is for free, but 50% (rounded down) of the fleets NC's must be exchanged with this variant.
 
→ the idea is to avoid “long range NC Spam” on the one hand, and on the other hand give the Bakka fleet a potent short range weapon system on the other hand, what IMO fits better to a Big Gun/close combat fleet.

Thoughts?

Eh,the problem with that is 'no new rules'.  Further, wouldn't this compliment NC spam rather then nerf it?

As far as the timeline goes, it's unclear.  The Jovian is from 'after' but Rath and the Dominus are from 'before'.  So which is it?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Dunno.  I know that the current license out on BFG's IP are worth several million pounds a year that GW does not have to lift a finger to profit from.  Right now they're just sitting back collecting checks.  

Serious alteration to the ships capabilities might void it.  I know that FFG holds the license for all BFG ship stats and names atm.  We've already seen their hand in the current FAQ so the idea that these limits come from their contractual relationship with GW is not that far fetched.

We're not talking about alterations from the ground up. Tweaks is more like it. And besides which, there's really not going to be any changes to the physical stuff they will be profiting from. That's where the money is. And if you tweak the ships and rules so that people will like them and buy them then it would only lead to profit in the long term.

Eh... it's not really BAD... but you're not getting much use out of the faster ships.  The Invicible and Vicky are good, but the Voss Trio and the Oberon make it feel like an Apoc list.  Particularly with marine reserves.  

The Havoc and the Siluria make Sword and Endeavour redundant.  Endurance.... eh... again, not a big fan of Voss ships in this list.  It's bad enough they turn up in the Bastion fleets list.  Putting them here just dilutes the flavor of Apoc and this list further.  

You won't really be getting much use out of the faster ships because IN doesn't really have any fast cruisers. At best you will have a fleet with the Invincible, Mercury and 2 Silurias sprinkled with escorts if you want a fast setup.

Also, it's only Endeavor duo since the Defiant is not in there. And the Endeavors I am thinking of are of course the Spd 20, 6+/5+ Armor and 90' Turn variety. Of course, I would prefer the Dauntless in there rather than the Siluria which would make for a better combo with the Invincible and Mercury.

And so my list has ships which have similar ships with other lists. Armageddon and Bastion did not dilute the flavor of the Gothic list even if there were Emperors, Lunars, Tyrants and Gothics in there. Armageddon did not dilute Bastion and vice versa when both have Apocs and the Endeavors. What makes the list standout is the addition of other ships and unique rules for he list, not the ships which are available in other fleet lists.

I still think Bakka should get 3+ to hit with their turrets.

[BaronIveagh]

You won't really be getting much use out of the faster ships because IN doesn't really have any fast cruisers. At best you will have a fleet with the Invincible, Mercury and 2 Silurias sprinkled with escorts if you want a fast setup.

Also, it's only Endeavor duo since the Defiant is not in there. And the Endeavors I am thinking of are of course the Spd 20, 6+/5+ Armor and 90' Turn variety. Of course, I would prefer the Dauntless in there rather than the Siluria which would make for a better combo with the Invincible and Mercury.

And so my list has ships which have similar ships with other lists. Armageddon and Bastion did not dilute the flavor of the Gothic list even if there were Emperors, Lunars, Tyrants and Gothics in there. Armageddon did not dilute Bastion and vice versa when both have Apocs and the Endeavors. What makes the list standout is the addition of other ships and unique rules for he list, not the ships which are available in other fleet lists.

I still think Bakka should get 3+ to hit with their turrets.

My old setup for Fast IN with bakka revolved around Invincible, 'Mercury', Cardinal, Enforcer and Dauntless. 

The Endeavor and Endurance just don't have synergy with the the Mercury and Siluria.  To me they feel like the odd man out here. 

There's a reason that I refer to the Gothic list as Battlefleet Generic.  It's like adding tofu.  Bastion Fleets and Armageddon have their own flavor, I think that Bakka should too. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

My old setup for Fast IN with bakka revolved around Invincible, 'Mercury', Cardinal, Enforcer and Dauntless. 

The Endeavor and Endurance just don't have synergy with the the Mercury and Siluria.  To me they feel like the odd man out here. 

Unfortunately, Cardinal and Enforcer are probably out of the question.

The Endeavor and Endurance don't have synergy with the fast ships. They do have synergy with the other ships in the list and so are not the odd man out.

There's a reason that I refer to the Gothic list as Battlefleet Generic.  It's like adding tofu.  Bastion Fleets and Armageddon have their own flavor, I think that Bakka should too. 

Bakka will have its own flavor in higher turrets and new ship options along with the AC light feel.

[BaronIveagh]

Unfortunately, Cardinal and Enforcer are probably out of the question.

The Endeavor and Endurance don't have synergy with the fast ships. They do have synergy with the other ships in the list and so are not the odd man out.

Not sure why Cardinal would be out.  It fits the requirements of Bakka like a glove. 

Enforcer, you have a point. 

Endeavour has synergy with nothing.  It's doubly useless in this list, as we have the Siluria.  Endurance, not so much, but still not a good option.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Not sure why Cardinal would be out.  It fits the requirements of Bakka like a glove.  

Enforcer, you have a point.  

Endeavour has synergy with nothing.  It's doubly useless in this list, as we have the Siluria.  Endurance, not so much, but still not a good option.

If the Cardinal is available, it should only be as a reserve as it's basically an old design which is susceptible to Chaos influences. Probably better to allow it in a future Chaos list than an IN list.

Lunar, Tyrant, Gothic and Dominator. Endeavors have synergy with these. They move at the same speed and they can cover the blind spots of those cruisers, esp if they can get the proposed alterations we are pushing for. The Siluria's speed would be wasted by sticking with these ships in formation. Siluria is a fast ship and much more suited with the Mercury and if it is included, the Invincible for a fast anti-pirate task force.

Though the Dauntless would still be a better option than the Siluria with its prow lances.

[BaronIveagh]

If the Cardinal is available, it should only be as a reserve as it's basically an old design which is susceptible to Chaos influences. Probably better to allow it in a future Chaos list than an IN list.

The Siluria and Havoc are equally old, and currently in use in this fleet.  Remember that this is also a fleet dredging the bottom of the barrel for ships following a catastrophic loss.  Hence why experimental ships like the Mercury and aging war horses like Siluria and Havok are in line use.  Frankly, I'm surprised that Reserve fleets ships aren't available to it, since this is the exact situation that things like mothball fleets exist for.  Not that Tempestus gets the best gear anyway. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

If the Cardinal is available, it should only be as a reserve as it's basically an old design which is susceptible to Chaos influences. Probably better to allow it in a future Chaos list than an IN list.

The Siluria and Havoc are equally old, and currently in use in this fleet.  Remember that this is also a fleet dredging the bottom of the barrel for ships following a catastrophic loss.  Hence why experimental ships like the Mercury and aging war horses like Siluria and Havok are in line use.  Frankly, I'm surprised that Reserve fleets ships aren't available to it, since this is the exact situation that things like mothball fleets exist for.  Not that Tempestus gets the best gear anyway. 

Which means a Murder is more likely to be found in Bakka than Cardinal.

[BaronIveagh]

Which means a Murder is more likely to be found in Bakka than Cardinal.

Ehh... the Cardinal was in Bakka in BFGm  This way it sticks as close as can to ships that have already been in the list.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Which means a Murder is more likely to be found in Bakka than Cardinal.

Ehh... the Cardinal was in Bakka in BFGm  This way it sticks as close as can to ships that have already been in the list.

That maybe but I would think that there is already too many new ships for this fleet list that having one more would be redundant instead of just adding an existing one like the Murder which again is the more prevalent hull and much more likely to be with any list scraping the bottom of the barrel. Also, at this point, it also seems Cardinal is out since it was not included in the latest Bakka drafts. I think the HA is also trying to streamline what kind of hulls are available to each race preferably limiting it to what hulls they normally use.

[BaronIveagh]

That maybe but I would think that there is already too many new ships for this fleet list that having one more would be redundant instead of just adding an existing one like the Murder which again is the more prevalent hull and much more likely to be with any list scraping the bottom of the barrel. Also, at this point, it also seems Cardinal is out since it was not included in the latest Bakka drafts. I think the HA is also trying to streamline what kind of hulls are available to each race preferably limiting it to what hulls they normally use.

Hm, so that new rule where chaos can take IN ships is a figment of my imagination?

I'm going on the idea that the previous pdf lists are probably not what they're looking at now.  The Cardinal is a much better fit then the Murder, having a higher base number of turrets to begin with, which is more or less what everyone seems to want rather then FDT.