Let's fix Battlefleet Bakka

[Vaaish]

he intent is that AdMech cruisers count as battlecruisers in all respects. To make this clearer, we will change the following to state:

That's all it needed to plug the hole Thanks for clearing it up now rather than it showing up in a tournament!

Mention has been made that the Overlord is better than the Mercury because it can take the targeting matrix refit so the Mercury should be made cheaper. Firstly, the Overlord can only be taken as reserves in this fleet so comparing the Overlord to the Mercury is like apples and basketballs. Secondly, while the Overlord can take a targeting matrix, it costs +15 points, the same price as a Mercury without the NC. The turret argument doesn’t wash either- while both can get +1 turret, the Mercury gets it for +5 points, while it costs the Overlord twice that. Added together you get your pick between two “flavors” of Overlord: one that’s faster, or one that has more-accurate firepower. Again, in actual gameplay (which I suggest some people try), what makes one better than the other will come down to playing style.

I think you are missing the point Nate. We know you have to bring the Overlord in via reserve, but the issue we are brining up is the fluff inconsistency between the Overlord having the same level of firepower and range without the extra-explody-ork-built-reactor core. It doesn't matter what the point cost is right now when you have one ship that seems to be fine with the long range weapons and yet a different ship with almost the exact same weapons load is specifically stated as needed a special reactor that's partly unstable to pull off the same feat yet only gains +5 speed for the trouble.

You are right that we have two flavors of overlord, though. One that moves slightly faster and blows up and one that doesn't. I'd rather see the Mercury be a bit more expensive to mount more powerful weapons and fit with the explanation of why it needs the fancy reactor than what is there now.

I don't think I've said it enough, so let me say thanks to all of you for beating me with various blunt instruments (and sometimes not so blunt) until we got this thing about 90% right.

Soo... does that mean I get that article for WR now?

[horizon]

I think Bakka starts to look fine. How nice.

[Valhallan]

ahh, i must have been daydreaming, this list would be fine if it had the dauntless:

1.) as bakka is supposed to be pretty fast, another 25cm boat is a good thing
2.) being a 25cm boat, it can pull fast maneuvers with the mercury
3.) the merc currently has no 'compliment' ships (ie lance boats), with the same speed.
4.) you could make a quite fast navy of suliarias and dauntless' with a couple mercs and a victory for an interesting fast/standoff fleet
5.) dauntless is a patrol boat, and a decent pirate hunter, fits the story.
6.) of course for these reasons the enforcer should be in, but i understand the LB issue. however the dauntless has been around since the get go and is a tried and tested fair ship (and generally the comparison for other CL's).
7.) it's torp option makes it so every class of ship can put out sizable salvos.

also it doesn't screw up the fleet:
1.) it doesn't overshadow the other CL's. sularia is cheaper, and the daunt can't compare to the staying power or flak abilities of the endev/endur.
2.) its not the cheapest ship, so it won't throw min/max lists
3.) if ya don't like it you don't have to take it.

[lastspartacus]

Agreed that Dauntless makes more sense here than the Voss types.

[RCgothic]

Most of the problem we have with the Mercury isn't its general firepower level. It probably has a fairly balanced level of firepower, and 235pts for no nova cannon is probably about right. (though the nova cannon is massively over-valued and the NC Mercury is going to be by far in the minority of variants fielded, just like NC Lunars are by far in the minority of Lunar variants actually fielded.).

The point is that the blurb states the Mercury has increased firepower, when it patently doesn't. The Armageddon easily outguns it in terms of firepower. At 235pts, the Overlord outguns it both in terms of range AND in terms of firepower. The Mars equals its firepower at R60cm.

Where is this magical extra firepower that the special rule claims it has?

I'm not against it having an extra 5cm speed for free along with a special rule that makes it more likely to blow up, but I really would prefer the rules and profile to match up. It doesn't have any additional firepower, so let's stop claiming it does, please?

[Eldanesh]

The "flagship" rule at the endurance still states that an additional turret can be taken for +10 points (should be +5)

Mars: I think the mars should be in. Simply because you'll see a lot of Carrier BC's in bakka, as it is their only source of AC. And I prefer a fleet with mixed ship classes instead of only one type. A fleet with one mars and one dominion looks nicer than one with two dominion.
At all it is no big difference, but I don't see a reason in forbidding a ship class as long as both clases are almost equal in worth and performance.

Same question for the overlord: is there any reason why it is not included? The fluff speaks that it is hard to build an only a limited number served in segmentum obscuras, but that doesn't mean that other forgeworlds in other segmentae have the same problem  
It is surly not an overpowered design and the 60cm guns as well as the 3rd turret option show that it is a ship in the "spirit" of Bakka.

Btw.: is there any chance that we can see a 1:1 BC ratio as mentioned some pages ago? IMO that would fit the big gun theme well...

Dauntless: here I'm not sure. I love the dauntless. It is by far the best navy light cruiser class. But this is the problem: You won't see much Siluras under the current rules, but you won't see any of them if you can include a dauntless which is only 10 points more expensive and far superior.

What Bakka IMO misses is a unique basic cruiser that “fits” the philosophy. Perhaps something like a Dominator but with torps instead of a Nova and a 3rd turret.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

The problem is with the Siluria then rather than the Dauntless. It is rather underwhelming even compared to the more expensive Endeavor.

[Eldanesh]

IMO it is a problem of both "sides": the daunt has an impressive amount of (focusable) firepower for such a small ship.
At all it has firepower like an escorts (which usually have more firepower-per-point compared to cruisers). so at all it should be a bit more expensive.
On the other hand the 3 light voss cruisers have a reasonable firepower for their size but are overpriced a bit.

The silura....well it is overpriced AND undergunned  

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

The silura....well it is overpriced AND undergunned 

Nah, not a problem with "both sides". The above line says otherwise. 

[Eldanesh]

OK..lets try another approach.

If you compare a silura to the light Voss cruisers it looks like the girl next door compared to Megan Fox: you know what you want, but you can live with both.

But if you bring in the dauntless then the silura suddenly looks like ..well...Beth Ditto.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

The problem is the Siluria already pales compared to Megan Fox (Endearvor, Endurance). It's really a problem with the Siluria then if Megan Fox is the basis of comparison. 

[Valhallan]

if hot celebrity chicks are the basis of comparison then we're totally screwed.

the problem is with the sularia... as nate said many pages ago, it can't be cheaper cuz otherwise its 'arder to take 2 than 1 dominator... but if it went down to 4 hits.... (or just dropped the F/L/R guns) then maybe it could be cheaper and offer an alternative to the daunt...

however, the daunt and the suliara fill qutie different roles, and besides would compliment each other well in a fast attack force... so i still see no problem...

besides if everything goes to hell... and i have ~110 spare points, i'll reserve 1 if necessary.

[horizon]

Siluria, did it change? I kinda liked the vessel. Best of the Bakka 1.1 I think.

But more importantly: Megan Fox will not be in Transformers 3: Dark of the Moon! Aaaaah! Already negative starting points for the movie. Superbowl spot looked cool though.



edit:
Siluria --> No need for Dauntless in Bakka!
Siluria loses 1point of wb as maximum focus compared to Dauntless. But Dauntless must be closing, thus easier to hit. Siluria can be abeam = yay.
Same speed, same turns.


Victory model -> same as Apocalypse?

[Eldanesh]

It loses not only 1 point of focus but also 3 points in total
Also I'm a fan of the torp-daunt which canstay out of range - something that is even better than showing broadsides 

[horizon]

It loses not only 1 point of focus but also 3 points in total

Doesn't matter. With the Siluria you want to keep it abeam.
Dauntless loses 8wb if it focus on prow.

Also I'm a fan of the torp-daunt which canstay out of range - something that is even better than showing broadsides

yes, torp Dauntless is nice if used well though it needs the Reload Ordnance order to be effective.