Let's fix Battlefleet Bakka

[Valhallan]

imo it is quite clear that the AM cruisers *count as CB's* and fill CB slots, so they do not count also as crusiers.


btw nate, the endev/endur side box still says +1 turret for +10 points.

[Vaaish]

imo it is quite clear that the AM cruisers *count as CB's* and fill CB slots, so they do not count also as crusiers

The problem is that it doesn't say counts as CB or that admech cruisers become battlecruisers in the bakka list. It says the admech ships are cruisers that can be taken in the same manner as in battlecruisers (in other words 2 bakka cruisers to one admech cruiser) and that the admech cruisers taken this way fill battlecruiser slots. That doesn't make them battlecruisers or preclude them from counting as one of the two cruisers needed to open up another battlecruiser slot.

[BaronIveagh]

imo it is quite clear that the AM cruisers *count as CB's* and fill CB slots, so they do not count also as crusiers.


btw nate, the endev/endur side box still says +1 turret for +10 points.

BC's count as cruisers for purposes of reserves and battleships, so it doesn't really matter. 

[Valhallan]

The problem is that it doesn't say counts as CB or that admech cruisers become battlecruisers in the bakka list. It says the admech ships are cruisers that can be taken in the same manner as in battlecruisers (in other words 2 bakka cruisers to one admech cruiser) and that the admech cruisers taken this way fill battlecruiser slots. That doesn't make them battlecruisers or preclude them from counting as one of the two cruisers needed to open up another battlecruiser slot.

^Lawyering. thats almost as bad as saying bakka cr 1:1 with AM cr.

If a ship fills a CB slot it can't be used to open another CB slot.

example of your logic:
take 2 bfb cr
take am cr
take bfb cr
take am cr
take am cr

here AM cr's are 1:1 with bfb cr's, but fill CB slots? no this totally doesn't make sense. AM Cr's count as CB's in the bakka list. good point bringing this up it should be stated more explicitly.

[lastspartacus]

I hate to say an answer to IN having it but...Certain forgeworld exclusive archeotech? >->

Hell, I wonder all the time why Crons and Eldar don't have 90cm weapons, let alone 60cm weapons.

For the record, I hate all the disadvantages of the Bastion Fleets.

[Vaaish]

BC's count as cruisers for purposes of reserves and battleships, so it doesn't really matter.

It's not for getting battleships BI, it's about getting access to more admech ships or battlecruiser slots. If the admech ships are still cruisers then you just need one more cruiser from bakka to get access to another admech ship or cb.

^Lawyering. thats almost as bad as saying bakka cr 1:1 with AM cr.

We are supposed to be trying to break the list to iron out things like this. The whole point about pointing this out is to bring it to Nates attention to make the wording more water tight.

[flybywire-E2C]

The comparison made to the Overlord is that the firepower isn’t much better for being more expensive. The point is that first of all, the firepower IS better

Nate, thanks for the updates and explanations it helps immensely! I have to say though that this is flawed. If you were comparing the pre-FAQ2010 Overlord then you would be quite right, but as Sig pointed out with the targeting matrix, the overlord has functionally the same firepower as the flying bomb that is the mercury. With options like the Dominion and Victory, it even makes sense to take the armageddon as a second battle cruiser choice or reserve in an overlord which fits bakka well using it's targeting matrix AND already having the option to upgrade it's turrets to 3.

On admech. Hows does this work for opening more CB clots? If you take say an admech gothic, it fills one CB slot in the bakka fleet but since admech ships aren't battlecruisers does it count as one cruiser for opening a second CB slot? In orther words would something like this be legal, ignoring points for the time being:

Siluria
Siluria
Admech Gothic
Dominator
Admech Gothic
Dominator
Armageddon
Jovian

Hi Vaaish!  The Bakka fleet list states the following:

In a Bakka fleet list, cruisers from the Adeptus Mechanicus fleet list may be taken in place of and in the same manner as Imperial Navy battlecruisers.

The intent is that AdMech cruisers count as battlecruisers in all respects. To make this clearer, we will change the following to state:
 
In a Bakka fleet list, cruisers from the Adeptus Mechanicus fleet list may be taken instead of and in the same manner as Imperial Navy battlecruisers, counting as battlecruisers against any fleet limits in all respects.

As such, your fleet list is two battlecruisers too heavy. Even though you can take one reserve cruiser/battlecruiser/etc. for every three cruisers in the fleet, you still need two cruisers per battlecruiser. Now if you wanted to cheese out on min-max carriers, this would actually be legal:

Siluria
Siluria
Admech Dictator
Dominator
Dominator
Admech Dictator
Reserve Dictator
Reserve Dictator

This however would be quite an expensive fleet, and reserve vessels don’t get the cheap +1 turret so while you would have a lot more ordnance than a typical Bakka fleet, this would also lose out on a lot of the benefits of playing a Bakka fleet as well. For carriers, It also can still be swamped by a plain-vanilla Imperial Navy fleet: AdMech cruisers legally count as reserves for ANY Imperial Navy fleet, and a plain-vanilla IN fleet can bring two more Dictators (for the two Dominators) than this fleet can bring for very little difference in total price

This ALSO doesn't take into account that AdMech cruisers aren’t really true  battlecruisers despite their price so a plain-vanilla IN fleet can square against this with four Dictators and two Mars in the BC slots, and even then the point costs would not be that far apart.

As for the Mercury, the arguments are beginning to get circular. Everyone clamored to bring the Overlord price down so we did. Then everyone used it as a hook to drop the Armageddon so we did. NOW some are complaining the Mercury needs to drop in price because of these other ships. I understand and get the price issues so the HA’s discussed it and it happened.

Mention has been made that the Overlord is better than the Mercury because it can take the targeting matrix refit so the Mercury should be made cheaper. Firstly, the Overlord can only be taken as reserves in this fleet so comparing the Overlord to the Mercury is like apples and basketballs. Secondly, while the Overlord can take a targeting matrix, it costs +15 points, the same price as a Mercury without the NC. The turret argument doesn’t wash either- while both can get +1 turret, the Mercury gets it for +5 points, while it costs the Overlord twice that. Added together you get your pick between two “flavors” of Overlord: one that’s faster, or one that has more-accurate firepower. Again, in actual gameplay (which I suggest some people try), what makes one better than the other will come down to playing style.

The Mercury is a brand-new ship, and we would rather aim a bit high with the points than aim too low (see the Devastation). We’re not revisiting the Mercury anymore unless it is broken as far as fairness or rule mechanics go. Players are NOT being obligated to use this ship if they don’t like it. Some people like it, some people hate it. It isn’t the only ship in the game that suffers this problem, and that in and of itself doesn’t make it un-playable.

[flybywire-E2C]

imo it is quite clear that the AM cruisers *count as CB's* and fill CB slots, so they do not count also as crusiers.


btw nate, the endev/endur side box still says +1 turret for +10 points.

Good catch- thanks! Oh, and you're right about the AdMech cruisers counting as CB's. That's fixed as well.

[Valhallan]

thanks for the props, but thank vaaish for bringing it up.

for the record i think this fleet is perfectly fine now.

[flybywire-E2C]

thanks for the props, but thank vaaish for bringing it up.

for the record i think this fleet is perfectly fine now.

I don't, but that's because I would love to have stuck another BB in here, like the Invincible or the Terra. However, it's starting to become subtraction by addition in that EVERY IN fleet list should consist of a core of mid-grade, plain vanilla warships with a sprinkling of Sector-unique vessels to give the fleet flavor. We were already tipping the scale with the new ships in this list, and to be honest I think tossing the Mars to put in yet another new ship (Dominion) was a bit of a stretch. However, it's done with a smile, but I don't think we should entertain adding even more new ships to this thing. Besides, the stipulation was that we would only be adding ships from the BFG Magazine so in the end I don't know if GW is going to bite off on the Dominion.  I think they will, but lately there's just no telling.

I don't think I've said it enough, so let me say thanks to all of you for beating me with various blunt instruments (and sometimes not so blunt) until we got this thing about 90% right. Yes Sig, that goes for you too.          

[Plaxor]

I don't think I've said it enough, so let me say thanks to all of you for beating me with various blunt instruments (and sometimes not so blunt) until we got this thing about 90% right. Yes Sig, that goes for you too.         

I find that the board with nail is my favorite blunt instrument. (does the nail make it a piercing weapon?) I usually carry one with my hand sandwich. They go rather well together, taking the 'Board+Nail' as reserves for the sandwich.

[Plaxor]

I'm actually confused about your statement Nate? How are they more likely to approve ships that you made up (The majority of PoC, the new ork ships etc.) that are radical compared to the Dominion? Something that has been around and isn't strange at all?

[flybywire-E2C]

I'm actually confused about your statement Nate? How are they more likely to approve ships that you made up (The majority of PoC, the new ork ships etc.) that are radical compared to the Dominion? Something that has been around and isn't strange at all?

Great question- while these are new ideas, the Ork Lite actually dates back to 1999 straight from Andy C, and the PoC battleships were actually in work (the Tzeentch one even had a model made) before everything was unplugged. I'm not saying the Dominion won't happen - I'm not a personal fan of the ship, but it isn't actually broken so I don't have a problem with it. As far as I'm concerned, it's staying in the Bakka project. My only worry is that feedback from GW lately has been more of the "we don't like it, never mind" variety rather than the "we don't like it, please fix." 

[Plaxor]

Those Douches! Maybe we should start beating them with our blunt objects.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I don't, but that's because I would love to have stuck another BB in here, like the Invincible or the Terra. However, it's starting to become subtraction by addition in that EVERY IN fleet list should consist of a core of mid-grade, plain vanilla warships with a sprinkling of Sector-unique vessels to give the fleet flavor.

You could always remove the Retribution to stick the Invincible in.