Rogue Trader (FFG) ship details

[Dragon Lord]

This was mentioned in the Ultramarines movie thread but I thought rather than drag that off topic I'd post a separate thread.

So I was wondering what people thought about the crew numbers and ship sizes published by FFG in Rogue Trader?  The sizes are a bit bigger than the traditional BFG ship sizes (which if I remember correctly were ~1km for an escort and ~2.5km for a cruiser).  The numbers are perhaps a bit small compared to say a US aircraft carrier, crew/volume for a Nimitz gives you a crew density about 100 times higher than FFGs numbers, but then a BFG vessel will likely have more space given over to armour and the engines are supposed to take up ~1/3 of the ship, a lot more than in an aircraft carrier, so the crew numbers seem probably not too bad to me.  Mass density wise FFGs ships come out about 1/3 that of a Nimitz, again that seems a bit low to me, but probably not too bad.

Anyway, thoughts?

Dragon Lord

[horizon]

FFG is official.
Even if we like it or not.

[RCgothic]

I think it's a step in the right direction from GW's original numbers, but they should be higher still. They're what, 5km long cruisers? Even assuming 2/3 of the ship is armour or uninhabitable engine spaces and only 1/10th of what's left is operationally inhabited for non-maintenance purposes, the crew density is 3 and a bit times lower what I'd expect.

[BaronIveagh]

I think it's a step in the right direction from GW's original numbers, but they should be higher still. They're what, 5km long cruisers? Even assuming 2/3 of the ship is armour or uninhabitable engine spaces and only 1/10th of what's left is operationally inhabited for non-maintenance purposes, the crew density is 3 and a bit times lower what I'd expect.

I still don't agree with FFG's numbers.  The density of the ships is low enough they would float on water like styrofoam.  The populations are out of whack for what they actually DO.  You don't just cram people on board a ship willy-nilly just because you CAN.  They have to be there for a REASON.  If it only takes 40 men to to be the chain gang on a macrocannon, why do you need 100k people on board a Lunar?

[Dragon Lord]

Density wise they aren't that different to a modern warship, as I said about a factor of 3 lower.  Bear in mind that warships do float on water (if not necessarily like styrofoam ) and are mostly empty space.  I agree that I think the densities are too low, and should be higher than a modern warship not lower, but they aren't totally loopy.  As to crew numbers one can certainly argue that an Imperial vessel would simply not need as many people as a comparably scaled up version of a modern sea-going vessel due to technological differences.  That said I couldn't tell you why a US aircraft carrier needs a crew of 3000 to run the ship and another 2500 to maintain the aircraft but I assume it does.  Though as I said by my calculations if you were to scale up a US carrier to the same size as FFGs ships the crew would be something close to 100 times as large as FFGs numbers.

Dragon Lord

[BaronIveagh]

Density wise they aren't that different to a modern warship, as I said about a factor of 3 lower.  Bear in mind that warships do float on water (if not necessarily like styrofoam ) and are mostly empty space.  I agree that I think the densities are too low, and should be higher than a modern warship not lower, but they aren't totally loopy.  As to crew numbers one can certainly argue that an Imperial vessel would simply not need as many people as a comparably scaled up version of a modern sea-going vessel due to technological differences.  That said I couldn't tell you why a US aircraft carrier needs a crew of 3000 to run the ship and another 2500 to maintain the aircraft but I assume it does.  Though as I said by my calculations if you were to scale up a US carrier to the same size as FFGs ships the crew would be something close to 100 times as large as FFGs numbers.

Dragon Lord

A battleship of comparable size to a modern aircraft carrier only requires 2500 men.  And that's doing most thigns by hand rahter then the level of automation avlible now.

As far as why the crews are so large on an aircraft carrier?  Only 1/3 of them are on duty at any given time.  Unless the shit has really hit the fan, you never really see the entire crew in action.  Compare it to an LHD where there are only 1k sailors and officers to 2,000 marines. 

So, even figuring that the Lunar has three watches, (which is NOT what they do, supposedly) why would you need 30,000 men on duty at any given time?  The batteries are stated in Blue book to only require 40 men per macro cannon.  What do they do, form a human chain that carries the individual loads from the magazine by hand?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

What do they do, form a human chain that carries the individual loads from the magazine by hand?

They use chainfalls and brute force to move things around. Wouldn't be surprised if they do that as well.

[BaronIveagh]

What do they do, form a human chain that carries the individual loads from the magazine by hand?

They use chainfalls and brute force to move things around. Wouldn't be surprised if they do that as well.

Which makes zero sense as you're in outer space.  Even if you ARE using brute force, it would only take one guy to move a macro cannon shell the size of a freight train into position.

Besides which the diagrams show it as more or less self loading with the shot coming up on trains from the magazine, more or less like a WWI dreadnought.  Some ships even use weapons involving gravity manipulation to FIRE do the idea of the 'thundering guns' of the IN ship would not happen, as a grav culviern would make no sound!

Hell, what about the Sword?  26,000 men to do... what?    It uses a jumped up laser system!  There's not even ammo to load! 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Which makes zero sense as you're in outer space.  Even if you ARE using brute force, it would only take one guy to move a macro cannon shell the size of a freight train into position.

Dude, in space, there would be artificial gravity. Makes things simpler than having to move around like astronauts and move things around like astronauts. Aside from which, try stopping something as massive as a freight train imparted with inertia. It would take more than one man to move a macro cannon the size of a freight train into position.

Besides which the diagrams show it as more or less self loading with the shot coming up on trains from the magazine, more or less like a WWI dreadnought.  Some ships even use weapons involving gravity manipulation to FIRE do the idea of the 'thundering guns' of the IN ship would not happen, as a grav culviern would make no sound!

Sure but they also use a lot of manual labor to move the shell to the auto loader of the gun.

Hell, what about the Sword?  26,000 men to do... what?    It uses a jumped up laser system!  There's not even ammo to load! 

You must mean the Firestorm. Which also have some WBs on it.

[BaronIveagh]

You must mean the Firestorm. Which also have some WBs on it.

No, I mean the Sword.  The standard IN frigate weapon is the Sunsear Laser Battery, according to FFG fluff.

And the Artificial grav is made of a series of gravity plates in the deck.  In theory this means they are able ot turn on and off.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

It's a weapon. Not the only weapon.

[BaronIveagh]

It's a weapon. Not the only weapon.

"Its (the sword's) laser based weapons and turrets are accurate and hard hitting...' - Rogue Trader Core Book pg 195

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Page 20. BBB Which I would consider more than RT:

"Weapon Batteries form the main armament for most warships,... Each battery consists of rank upon rank of weapons: plasma projectiles, laser cannons,  missile launchers, railguns, fusion beamers and graviton pulsars."

So laser based weapons are included. But they're not the only weapons the Sword has.

[BaronIveagh]

Page 20. BBB Which I would consider more than RT:

"Weapon Batteries form the main armament for most warships,... Each battery consists of rank upon rank of weapons: plasma projectiles, laser cannons,  missile launchers, railguns, fusion beamers and graviton pulsars."

So laser based weapons are included. But they're not the only weapons the Sword has.

...it only has two weapon hard points on it's dorsal mount.  The sunsear is a range 9 str 4 weapon.  The standard Macrocannon (when not mounted as a broadside for a cruiser) is a range 6 str 3 weapon.  In BFG, the Sword has a str 4 weapon, meaning it theoretically get twice as much firepower in RT then it does in BFG.  (since weapon str seems to convert directly, *most* of the time.)  

[RCgothic]

Given how old these ships are, how many millions of kilometers of wiring there would be even in a Sword, and how infested with Vermin (that really do like to chew on cables for no reason except extreme risk of death - rats are seriously weird) they are, it probably takes a good few thousand working ceaselessly just to keep the thing operational. It's a full time job for 200 people just to keep the Forth Bridge painted, and the surface area on the humid interior of even a sword is going to be much vaster than that, let alone the exterior and fixing minor battle damage (such as a 50m wide crater blown in the superstructure - not worth going back to port over) is going to be an enormous workforce.

Then there's the standard 40k Trope of Insanely High Tech right next to the pre-industrial. It may be that the ship has Thrusters that can bring its entire bulk onto a new course in a matter of minutes, but to move just one into facing the right direction for a manoeuvre takes 500 strong men ten minutes on a treadmill.

It may be that the plasma reactors at the heart of a starship can put out enough power to light modern day earth, but just keeping it supplied with fuel requires 1000 men full time on hand pumps.

Now I'm not saying they were originally designed that way, but as the ships ages, certain pieces of technology fail that no-one knows how to replace and work arounds have to be employed. The manual labour EASILY mounts up.