question about tyranid hive ship

[Zelnik]

Normally sig, i would agree with you, but with all the standard glitter that the nids get right off the bat, I just can't support letting them have access to campaign refits.

How about turrets that can fire at all kinds of ordnance? and force a blast marker on almost any opponent they touch? (this used to murder eldar escorts in droves)

or perhaps, feeder tentacles that can cause instant damage and hit-and-runs, ignoring armor?

Giant claws that attack at full strength despite bracing for impact? and getting two attacks a round?

45cm batteries that cause fire crits?

the nids have plenty, and can still take the 90 pt massive claw cruiser. 

[Sigoroth]

None of which is sufficient to encapsulate the Nid feel. What, in principle, is wrong with them having such levels of customisability?

[lastspartacus]

To me, nothing.  As long as its fair.

[Zelnik]

I agree with sparticus. However before, it was far from it.

[Sigoroth]

I don't see what you think is unfair about a 14 hit 6 shield Hive ship. Seems about right to me, and not such a huge threat given the 5+ prow armour and slow speed. I understand an objection to 6 turrets, but this is a problem with the way turrets and bombers interact, not a problem with shooting down 3 ordnance per wave (particularly as BMs reduce the chance to hit to 6+).

As for the rest of the Evolutions, there doesn't seem to be anything terribly unbalanced amongst that lot. So if the only problem is the monster hive ship then that can be balanced by an increase in cost for the Evolution (spores), a restriction on the number of maximised Hive ships and/or ships with identical Evolutions. I don't even think that's necessary myself. Certainly there's no reason to overrule the RAW, destroy the Nids feel and make the fleet more boring and less competitive.

[lastspartacus]

Cost my friend, its the cost in which they can do it.

Also, I realize that nids are a threat, but accomplishing far more than the finest lost technology battleships is dumb for a biological creature in space.

[Eldanesh]

I don't see what you think is unfair about a 14 hit 6 shield Hive ship. Seems about right to me, and not such a huge threat given the 5+ prow armour and slow speed

Add a third mutation which allows to fire all weapons on AAF(an average speed of 29cm a round isn't that slow), a broadside of 14 short ranged but shield ignoring lances, point cost of just 380 Points and almost no restriction in the fleet list (except you have to take 6 dirt cheap and powerfull escort drones for 120 points) and you have a huge threat.

Honestly show me any battleship (except the void stalker with enough terrain on the table) or any 2 cruisers for ~400P that really stands a chance against this monster.


In general, I share your point of view: it would have been a lot better to balance the evolutions/the Tyranids as a whole instead of simply forbidding the refits. But if the only both options avaible are (a) forbid them or (b) let them as they are, (a) is IMO the better choice. 

[Sigoroth]

Add a third mutation which allows to fire all weapons on AAF(an average speed of 29cm a round isn't that slow), a broadside of 14 short ranged but shield ignoring lances, point cost of just 380 Points and almost no restriction in the fleet list (except you have to take 6 dirt cheap and powerfull escort drones for 120 points) and you have a huge threat.

Honestly show me any battleship (except the void stalker with enough terrain on the table) or any 2 cruisers for ~400P that really stands a chance against this monster.

Yeah, it's a reasonable ship. However, those lances are only 15cm range and you can't LO if you're on AAF and it is a closing cap ship with 5+ armour and even with AAF it can be slowed to an average of 24cm simply with a BM. Nids have quite a few nice bonuses, but they have their downsides as well. For example, those 14 lances could be ignored simply by putting a single escort closer than the rest of your ships.

In general, I share your point of view: it would have been a lot better to balance the evolutions/the Tyranids as a whole instead of simply forbidding the refits. But if the only both options avaible are (a) forbid them or (b) let them as they are, (a) is IMO the better choice.  

In my opinion option (b) is by far the better choice. If there was really a problem of balance then I would have expected it to have been more noticeable, ie, some tournament Nid wins, etc. After all, Hiveships like this would be more powerful in small games, where people would be less likely to have enough firepower to pop them. Also, by the same token, if the upgrades are so unbalanced that something does need to be done there then comes a call to action to actually do something about it. Whereas if the official fix is to make it a "player decision" then the HA will not ever get around to balancing the options.

[Zelnik]

Nids steamrolled the last adepticon actually, trashing the long standing tau champion.  The issue is that nids are not easy to collect as a fleet, and their citidel minis are expensive and not popular. 

[Sigoroth]

Nids steamrolled the last adepticon actually, trashing the long standing tau champion.  The issue is that nids are not easy to collect as a fleet, and their citidel minis are expensive and not popular. 

What was the fleet?

[Eldanesh]

If there was really a problem of balance then I would have expected it to have been more noticeable, ie, some tournament Nid wins, etc

1. How much BFG tournaments do you really know? This game has really a rather small community. It isn't like 40k where you have 80+player tournamnents every weekend. To be honest I've only seen a handfull of BFG tournaments which are more than "the regular group of four friends decided to play competative instead friendly this this weekend". 

2. This forum is a microcosmos Don't want to be be offensive, but what happend here is stamped by the opinions of a handful users and their impressions. Some can give reasons for their point of view (you are a example for that), some can't and only think their opinion has influence only because they post a lot. It's isn't really representative. The simple fact that no tyraplayer is here is good hint in this direction. And most I've seen and heard about 'nids is plain simple: played 'hard' they are overpowered. Now the FAQ took away disadvantages (most players I know interpreted the rules in a way that Tyranids always had 2D6 on AAF and Escort drones had only a turret an no shield - and they didn't complained that they were too weak...)

[Zelnik]

pot..kettle...black... 

[Gorin]

I was a Tyranid player.  Unfortunately a lack of opponents forced me to quit playing. 

As a Tyranid player, I used none of the refits in the back of the list and I still won games.  Using no refits is a viable strategy especially considering the number of cheap yet dangerous escorts a fleet may field.