question about tyranid hive ship

[Vaaish]

The evolutions of the hive mind are refits. IIRC all other races may only take refits in a campaign not in one of games. The change was to bring nids in line with everyone else. Nid players should know full well what they can and can't do far before a tournament. It's the players responsibility to make sure they review and comply with the rule set listed by the tournament organizers.

[Don Gusto]

Nids have always been able to use their refits in one-off games. It goes so far as to say so specifically in their rules. The 2010 FAQ has many "flaws", this being merely one of them.

page 92 of Armada:
"This natural adaptation is represented in the Tyranid fleet list in the way that other races have special refits."

Since the other races can use refits only in campaigns (or mutual agreement) this obviously applys here as well. Tailoring any fleet with picked refits will make it overpowered.

[lastspartacus]

It just doesnt make fluff sense.  That a 10 hit ship can pack twice the firepower of a battleship.  Using organic matter, at that.  Laughable.

[horizon]

I never played with or against Nids. I hope my opponent puts them together soon.

Before that I can only look at them from gathered knowledge and that is that Nids can be nasty, especially in the past with uber Hiveships. But never read or heard about them being broken / too strong.

[Zelnik]

I, however, -have- fought against nid players.. MANY of them.

Remember, this is a fantasy setting where organic claws can chomp into super-dense metallic hulls.  Also, the only truly reliable weapon systems the nids have are boarding and pyro acid batteries.  Everything else shuts down the moment they are crippled.

[Sigoroth]

page 92 of Armada:
"This natural adaptation is represented in the Tyranid fleet list in the way that other races have special refits."

Since the other races can use refits only in campaigns (or mutual agreement) this obviously applys here as well. Tailoring any fleet with picked refits will make it overpowered.

Nonsense. It is quite clear that this means that these options are what Nids use in place of refits during a campaign, not that these options are restricted to campaigns only. It specifically says they can take them on their capital ships and escorts, without mentioning that this is during a campaign. Therefore they're allowed. To further elucidate, they have a fixed cost (like an option) which is different from normal refits, which cost +10%. These can be selected, whereas normal refits are random. What's more it differentiates between campaign and non-campaign. It says during a campaign you can only gain 1 refit before a battle. If these were normal refits then this would not need to be stated. Lastly, these refits can be placed on escorts, again not normal. There is nothing here that suggests that these options are limited to campaigns. And if they were then the Nid fleet would be very boring.

[Zelnik]

by 'boring' you mean 'at an equal level with the other fleets'?

Before it took three parts tactical genius, seven parts luck to defeat a nid player with any other fleet (even necrons)

It goes beyond "change your tactics" or "get better at the game" when they create six shield/turret 14 hit nightmares and have zero restrictions on them.  of all the fleets that had the simplest tweaking to bring them in line, the nids reign supreme. 


by placing "evolutions of the hive mind require opponent permission" on the 2010 faq, nid players now had to focus on winning games on the same level as everyone else, and probably will not sweep tournaments like they did before.

[Don Gusto]

Nonsense. It is quite clear that this means that these options are what Nids use in place of refits during a campaign, not that these options are restricted to campaigns only. It specifically says they can take them on their capital ships and escorts, without mentioning that this is during a campaign. Therefore they're allowed. To further elucidate, they have a fixed cost (like an option) which is different from normal refits, which cost +10%. These can be selected, whereas normal refits are random. What's more it differentiates between campaign and non-campaign. It says during a campaign you can only gain 1 refit before a battle. If these were normal refits then this would not need to be stated. Lastly, these refits can be placed on escorts, again not normal. There is nothing here that suggests that these options are limited to campaigns. And if they were then the Nid fleet would be very boring.

That's an interesting rules interpretation but I can't follow your assumptions. When in doubt I always assume that the rules mean what they say, not what this might imply.

Luckily for both of us, this has finally been clarified in the FAQ2010.

[Sigoroth]

That's an interesting rules interpretation but I can't follow your assumptions. When in doubt I always assume that the rules mean what they say, not what this might imply.

Luckily for both of us, this has finally been clarified in the FAQ2010.

Eh? You make an assumption that Nids can only get these refits in a Campaign. It doesn't say that, it doesn't even imply that.

by 'boring' you mean 'at an equal level with the other fleets'?

Before it took three parts tactical genius, seven parts luck to defeat a nid player with any other fleet (even necrons)

It goes beyond "change your tactics" or "get better at the game" when they create six shield/turret 14 hit nightmares and have zero restrictions on them.  of all the fleets that had the simplest tweaking to bring them in line, the nids reign supreme. 


by placing "evolutions of the hive mind require opponent permission" on the 2010 faq, nid players now had to focus on winning games on the same level as everyone else, and probably will not sweep tournaments like they did before.

No, I mean boring. The fleet without its refits is terribly boring. The only problem with the Nid super-Hive is its immunity to bombers. This is a problem with the way turrets are able to suppress bomber attack runs though, not a problem with the Nid rules. Of course, there is a tendency among players to min/max. This isn't really a problem except that perhaps the Nids should be a little more diverse. In which case a caveat saying that no 2 HIveships can have the exact same combination of refits. Or limiting the number of uber-hives to 1 per fleet (so only 1 can have 14 hits), etc. This is not really a balance thing, just a representation of variety/supremacy thing (presumably the largest Hiveship would be the one in charge). If further balancing of options is required then that should be discussed. Nids should not lose their character and variety simply because you find it too hard to beat them. I for one can't see how these hive ships would be able to stand up to a Carnage fleet.

[lastspartacus]

No more boring than any other non-Chaos/IN fleet.  It has fewer options.  Actually, its alot more customizable than say, DE, Necrons, or Tau.

[Sigoroth]

Yes, it's extremely boring. Try playing a Nid fleet without the ability to customise your ships with those evolutions. Really very crap. If they were meant for campaign only then why make Hiveships only 10 hits? It'd take forever to refit a hiveship to 14 hits. Pretty stupid having to earn 2 refits just to hit normal BB levels. Also, who's going to give a refit to an escort in a campaign? Why the limitation of only 3 different evolutions? If you can earn more then why not?

The fact is these options were designed for one off games. Campaign use was an afterthought. The Hiveship was made 10 hits base because you could take them up to 14, but it'd cost one of your 3 evolutions as well as points to do it. You can give escorts evolutions because they change the way your fleet plays. All these options are just like the options in the Nid Codex that give +1BS or WS or I or save or whatever. It's so you can construct a fleet to how you want it to play. That was the intent.

If some options are unbalanced just balance them. Don't make the fleet boring.

[lastspartacus]

If they were balanced, then fine.  But having a 14 hit, 6 turret, 6 shield monstrosity with focusable str40 pyro battery and all of the Tyranid close range nastyness, for the price of an Emperor battleship.  Well thats laughably broken.

The way the nid rules are laid out are contradictory and crap, so there may be some confusion.  Perhaps it means there is str4 Front for the whole of the strbrd/prt, not 4 on each side, or perhaps its 1 bioplasma per side rather than one, though the bays do it the opposite way.  Really no way of knowing, friggin document.

Edit: They have 10 hits because thats standard for a nid hiveship.  The model agrees.




(noticed an error, gives cost of torps for hive ship, but no torp option listed in profile.)

[Zelnik]

Sig, i fail to see the merits of your arguement since they have little problem customizing their weapons.

If you wanna play with the campaign upgrades, play a campaign and earn them.

[Plaxor]

I'm with Sig here, tyranids should be playable with their evolutions. I've never met a tyranid player who didn't use them in every game, or anyone who ever said they shouldn't.

IN/chaos have some refits already included in some of their ship profiles as an option. Such as salvaged targeting arrays, or improved thrusters or whatnot.

I've played against the murderous hive ships a few times. Expensive, slow, short ranged. Sure, there have been quite a few times with orks where I've wiped their entire fleet except the hive ship, and have been sitting around with 3 kroozers wondering what I should do about that hive ship.... but alas, I don't feel the thing is broken. Just... annoying.

Anyone ever hear about the Hiveship list with 3 hiveships at 14 hits and 6 shields winning anything? Bah, no. The Killy is in the escorts.

[Sigoroth]

Sig, i fail to see the merits of your arguement since they have little problem customizing their weapons.

If you wanna play with the campaign upgrades, play a campaign and earn them.

Customising weapons is just the same as picking different classes of ship. It's not Nidish. Nids come with built-in flaws, such as slow speed and low hits which you can make up for by buying the appropriate evolution. Imagine if they took out all the Nid bio-enhancements from 40k and just left them with the basic profile using the argument "all other races have to use a base profile so why shouldn't the Nids?". Firstly, Nids should be more malleable and secondly if you're going to give them a base profile instead of letting the player adjust as he chooses then you have to give them the right base profile. This would mean making the cruisers 8 hits and the Hiveships 12 hits, as well as adjusting speeds and suchlike.

Yes, Chaos and IN have standard profiles with a little variation (Targeting Matrix here, extra turret there, here some range, there some a-boats, etc). Nids should not be bound in this way. They are individual creatures that evolve rapidly to suit the situation and so have a myriad different possibilities. This was of course realised by the creators of the ruleset. Which is why they have the option to pick Evolutions.