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Author Topic: question about tyranid hive ship  (Read 13157 times)

Offline lastspartacus

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question about tyranid hive ship
« on: January 14, 2011, 11:42:20 AM »
Ok, I know that evolution of the hive mind refits arent allowed in one off games.

My question is this, after looking over the points costs of Nids in real detail:

Am I missing something about the Hive Ship?  If I'm reading it correctly, you can have a 10 hit wonder with 20 concentrated and shield ignoring lance shots!  Or strength 40 pyroacid battery!  Am I missing something?  Because the amount of weaponry you can pack into this, essentially, factory and control ship, seems insane.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2011, 12:20:50 PM »
Ok, I know that evolution of the hive mind refits arent allowed in one off games.

Yeah, they can. "These refits can be incorporated by capital ships or individual escorts except where specifically noted otherwise for the cost indicated." pg 92 of Armada, second paragraph, under the Evolution of the Hive Mind.

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My question is this, after looking over the points costs of Nids in real detail:

Am I missing something about the Hive Ship?  If I'm reading it correctly, you can have a 10 hit wonder with 20 concentrated and shield ignoring lance shots!  Or strength 40 pyroacid battery!  Am I missing something?  Because the amount of weaponry you can pack into this, essentially, factory and control ship, seems insane.

Alas I don't have my old FAQ files on this computer, so I can't look it up, but I'm fairly sure that the P/S bio-plasma batteries are supposed to read Left/Right, not Front/Left/Right, and this Left/Right represents the respective fire arcs. So each bioplasma discharge would be written as 2L@15cmL+R in forum shorthand. This gives a maximum potential of 6 broadside lances plus the 8 LFR lances of the prow and thorax hardpoints (total focusable = 14).

I'm am less sure regarding the Pyro-acid. They are possibly correct, giving 12 port pyro-acid batteries firing forward, 12 starboard pyro-acid batteries firing forward and the 16 combined pyro-acid batteries firing forward from the prow and thorax hardpoints. Giving a total of 40WB as you said. Otherwise they'd be Left + Right firing like the lances. I believe it is the former though (so 40 batteries forward).

Offline horizon

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2011, 12:44:58 PM »
From FAQ2010:

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Tyranids do not have access to any crew skills in the course of a campaign. They may gain refits in the course of a campaign as outlined by the rules on p. 92 of Armada. These refits can only be used in one-off games if both players agree.
Lot of people hate uber-hiveships.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2011, 03:35:14 PM »
Quote
Yeah, they can. "These refits can be incorporated by capital ships or individual escorts except where specifically noted otherwise for the cost indicated." pg 92 of Armada, second paragraph, under the Evolution of the Hive Mind.

Unless one of the last edits removed it, the 2010FAQ prevents the evolution of the hive mind refits in one of games.
-Vaaish

Offline Eldanesh

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2011, 04:14:54 PM »
Wait until you see the real nasty things like escort drones with pyroacid batteries

for 120 Points you get 6 ships with FP24 that would usually do between 2-3 criticals hits and get additional 2-3 fire criticals.

Yes they are slow, but dirt cheap and since the new FAQ are harder to destroy by Aboats, have a shield and move addidtional 2W6 on AAF. And of course you can cover them with carrier-Hives.

And you can have 2 squads of these per hive

=> Tyras are the single most overpowered fleet in the game. Not "broken" like Eldar (where the mechanics don't fit the game) not easy to beat if you change your tactic (like Necrons), simply overpowered: to good profiles for to less points

The Hive with the 14 shield ignoring lances, 14 HP and 6 Shields and full firepower on Special orders for 380 is just the tip of the iceberg....

without refits its only 14 shield ignoring lances wit 10 HP and 4 Shield for 300P, but tis doesn't help much if he can buy 4 of that escorts for the money...

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2011, 09:04:39 PM »
And this is balanced?

Offline Zelnik

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2011, 09:15:38 PM »
Balanced? sort of.

Remember, now that nids no longer have super toughness, they are suddenly vulnerable to ordnance, ALSO they have an extremely punishing critical hits table. 

Their cruisers are limited, and playing around with only hive ships and escorts can result in a very messy loss.  They are also restricted to very short or medium range.  They ONLY have assault boats, and slow moving fighters.  I would say that they are tough, but balanced. The feeder tentacles and spore damage were the things that really needed a change.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2011, 09:27:11 PM »
I just dont understand how a 10 hit ship can have so much more firepower than a Tombship, and be cheaper 0.o

Thats bonkers to me.

Offline Zelnik

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 09:32:45 PM »
It doesn't. Remember, tombships always count as closing.. hive ships do not. Lets not forget the particle whips which fire at 45, not at 15.. and the portals which now may always be used.

Offline Eldanesh

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2011, 12:04:47 AM »
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And this is balanced?
No, it is NOT. This is why I call Tyranids “overpovered” :)

At all I'm very surprised why in this Forum there is no complain about them. I guess it's because no one here has really experience against a “nasty” tyra-player.

Honestly, in the hands of a true Powergamer they simply eat up (;D) any enemy, only Eldar can avoid destruction if the terrain is right (the usually problem...).
The reason for this is, that their disadvantages don't really matter:
* yes their cruisers are just medicore – but you can simply ignore them. You don't have to use crusiers.
* yes they are somewhat slow (15cm) – but is doesn't matter if your main weapons (feeder tenteacles, massive claws) can be used at full effency while on AAF. 4D6+15cm is not slow at all
* yes their flyers are slow – but who cares if you only need them to defend your escorts: send them on CAP and forget the speed


Some examples of nasty Nid ships.

Hives:
- the “S14 Bioplasma” mentioned above – without refits/mutations not so scary as before, but for 300P with 4 Shields an 10 hits still a good deal

-  the carrier hive: 10 hits, 4 shields/turrets, 8 flyers and 6 boarding torpedos for 305P. Yes the Tyra ordnance is inferior but with doubled launch limit 1 or 2 of these is all you need to cover your fleet with fighters. All in all one of the most cost-efficent carriers in the game, second only to the Emperor.

- if you want a “ship of the Line”: just ignore the port/starboard weapons (you don't have to buy them) and have an S16 Pyroacid battery @45 cm with F/L/R  for 260 Points. Sure, 15cm and no CTNH is a disadvantage, but 4 shields and 10 hits even that more than out.

Cruisers:
just buy 2 sets of massive claws. Thats it. 90 Points.
2 Shields/turrets, six hits. Just AAF all the time (an average speed of 34cm). And kill everything you come in contact with.
* 4D6 in shooting phase. each 4+ is a lost hit point.
* if 2 hit (not uncommon...) you “catch”  the ship an can get 1 or 2 additional hits in every End + phase if you hit with 2 (one hit) or all 4 (two hits) dices.
* and you can perform the regular boarding action: given the tyras special rules (double boarding value +2D6 (pick the highest)) and the fact that you'll have inflicted 1-2 hits already you'll win this in most cases. If you manage to concentrate 2-3 of these on a single enemy you'll usually kill every cruiser sized ship in one turn. Not bad for a 90 points ship.

And now for the real nasty things:

- Feeder tentacle Vanguard: 25Points. 90° turns and an average speed of 39cm on AAF. If they fly over something it either gets 1-3 hit& run crits or loses an hit point and gets one hit & run crit. So a squadron of six for 150 points makes ~ 3 hit points damage and 9 criticals. You don't even have to “hit”- just fly over your opponent. And don't be afraid to go on BFI if the enemy shoots back: the tentacles are unaffected by it. Only donwside is, that you only have 25cm “range” instead of 39.

- the newes thing: Bioplasma kraken: 35 Points 6+ armour permant 4+ save 25cm speed  and a S2@15cm shield-ignoring lance. It it not as hard as other options, but it it is surly one of the better escorts in the game.

- the mentioned Pyroacid escort Drone.
One word: dirt cheap. Yes they are slow (15cm) but who cares with S4 Pyroacid@30cm  for 20 points. With AAF you get them in range fast enough. For the price of a Lunar cruiser you get 9 of these Babys for a Firepower of 36 – I repeat 36 -  and every crit causes an additional fire crit.
Just protect them with some CAP so that Assault boats don't get them before they are in range and watch your opponent cry. And if you disenage just the last living escort the enemy only gets 25% victory points (in this case :45).

→ Seriously, Nids need a rebalance...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 12:07:05 AM by Eldanesh »

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2011, 12:17:23 AM »
Thats totally hilarious.  Its str20 bioplasma actually.  or str40 special guns.  Hilarious.  I cant believe i missed this joke until now.  I was hoping I was misreading.  I guess the claws are the only option for the cruisers, as they are for some reason limited from turning their weapons frontward.

Offline Zelnik

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2011, 04:40:50 AM »
I have played against the terrible nid menace a lot.

Those amazing battleships only have armor 5+, are slow, and are big easy targets. When they die, the synaptic control falls apart. When they are crippled, they can no longer launch ordnance.

When those claw cruisers are crippled, they cannot use their claws, or their feeder tentacles.


The re-balancing of the nids WAS restricting them from using their refits, giving spores one attack only (which used to RUIN eldar players), and making feeder tentacle attacks ONLY effect an enemy if they land base-to-base with their enemy. 

Pyroacid batteries are nice, but they are still just batteries, and suffer all the effects of it. Bioplasma? HA! it has a pathetic range.  I can destroy every hive ship you have with pyro acid before it gets a single shot in.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2011, 12:31:01 PM »
Nids have always been able to use their refits in one-off games. It goes so far as to say so specifically in their rules. The 2010 FAQ has many "flaws", this being merely one of them.

Offline horizon

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2011, 12:44:27 PM »
A flaw?
Many complained about unbeatable nids/hiveships.
With the mutual agreement it is solved neatly.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: question about tyranid hive ship
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2011, 01:12:48 PM »
A flaw?
Many complained about unbeatable nids/hiveships.
With the mutual agreement it is solved neatly.

I don't think so. A Nid player should be able to turn up to a tournament or a friendly with a fleet that he knows he can use. Nid evolutions should be a standard part of the fleet to give variety and customisation to a fleet that is supposed to have variety and mutation. If it's unbalanced, fix it. Don't leave Nid players at the mercy of some arsehole who says "nah, you can't use 'em", particularly as the RAW say you can and so have previous FAQs. People would have bought and converted fleets on the strength of their customisability. Also, the only problem with the "monstrosity" hive ships was that they were immune to bombers. A problem with the ordnance rules, not with the Hiveships.