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Author Topic: Attack craft vs. Escorts  (Read 7738 times)

Offline Phthisis

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Attack craft vs. Escorts
« on: January 13, 2011, 02:01:49 AM »
Given the ease with which most escorts are dispatched by attack craft, do escorts have a role to play in BFG? I keep thinking that when given a proper fighter screen escorts can add a strategic element not given by attack craft. I see very few lists posted where there are any escorts, and where they are present they appear in small numbers.  What is the current thinking?

Offline horizon

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2011, 04:08:46 AM »
That I like escorts over ordnance but never leave without both unless it is my Craftworld Eldar fleet since it is fluffy not to have escorts in your list. :)

Throwing bombers at escorts with massed turrets can be a waste.
Assault boats now kill escorts on a 4+.

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2011, 07:25:32 AM »
In the end, using ordnance against escorts is not nearly as efficient as it used to be. bombers only strike ONE target, and many escorts have 2 turrets. Assault boats are far less effective, but effective none the less.

The biggest advantage to escorts, if you look really closely, is clear.  Huge firepower-to-points ratio, and they are NOT easy to destroy (though each killed does reduce the strength of the squadron)

Offline Dark Depths

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2011, 12:42:20 PM »
I am currently working on an article for warp rift about this issue, so I will post a few of my ideas up here later.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2011, 02:35:35 PM »
I don't think AC vs Escorts need any more of a revision following the massed turrets and Assault Boats causing a critical hit on a 4+ revisions.

I would much prefer a change to the way bombers work against battleships (Vastly reduced immunity), and a change to fighters to make them worth having as escorts in a wave (including for assault boats).

Offline Phthisis

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2011, 05:46:55 PM »
Maybe I'm just uninformed about the new rules. I saw in the rulebook where an escort can BFI against hit & run attacks, but nothing about assault boats only killing escorts on 4+. Where is this rule located?  I also havent seen the stuff about escorts with 2 turrets.

Also, how does escorts in b2b work out with blast markers for shield hits? Can one marker take down multiple shields?  Is that the downside of b2b?

Offline horizon

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2011, 07:18:19 PM »
Hi,

check here for the FAQ2010 (has been sent to GW by the rule committee):
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q 

Also contains other drafts.

You'll find it most interesting.

Escorts with 2 turrets? Ehm... Sword Class, Firestorm, etc etc etc. plain old rulebook.




Offline Zelnik

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2011, 11:28:23 PM »
From off the top of my head..

Firestorms
Swords
Idolators
Castellans
Dhows
Gladius


Eldar don't have to worry about ordnance at all really..

Orks are orks, don't be a git.

Nids get spores, which also count as shields..

Necrons don't need huge turrets..



Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 03:34:05 AM »
Agreed.  In my necron rules, necrons all have one less turret.

Offline Phthisis

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2011, 04:04:37 AM »
Obviously I'm dealing with people who know their stuff.  However after reading the FAQ, I believe my question is still relevant despite the change in premise.  Please don't get me wrong.  I want to take escorts. I'm not trying to denegrate them or the ruleset.  I am just trying to find a role for them to play in my fleet.  I play a Chaos Marine fleet to go along with my 40k army in campaign and I get good mileage out of my attack craft.  I see that attack craft is vital for my fleet's survival.  So, considering how easy it is to drop an escort squadron compared to a cruiser, what would they add to my fleet?

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2011, 09:26:59 AM »
It's not actually so easy to drop an escort squadron.

For 180pts you can get a cruiser or 5 Swords plus change. It takes 10hits to destroy a cruiser in one turn, and 10 hits to destroy the escorts in one turn. The Escorts are more resilient vs weapon batteries, so it's actually much harder to wipe out an escort squadron in one turn than it is to destroy a cruiser (assault boats excepted).

The advantage you get from escorts is that they bring a high level of focusable firepower on a very fast and manoeuvrable platform. A squadron of 5 swords have a broadside of firepower 20, much more than a Lunar.

Where the escorts are weaker is that they suffer attrition far more easily. 5 Swords lose 1/5th of their firepower every 2 hits, whilst a cruiser loses 1/2 after 6. They also have less total firepower.

Offline Dark Depths

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2011, 02:30:00 PM »
5 swords vs one lunar

175pts vs 180pts

20 firepower LFR vs 6 wb + 2 L LR, 6 prow torps

Plus the swords can manouvre to gain the best angle, hopefully. 

I'd personally argue that the swords firepower was equal to the lunars, if not better, in certain situations, ie, against Eldar.  But they do suffer from attrition...

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2011, 03:19:12 PM »
The main issue with Escorts has always been attrition. Until the new FAQ came into play, they died on a 2+ to assault boats which defeated their resilience to weapons fire rather handily especially considering you could send the AB off to harass the escorts and shoot at more favorable targets. IMO that made escorts rather hit or miss and as an IN player light cruisers, especially the dauntless, could fill the role of fast reaction much more effectively than escorts since AB couldn't kill them outright and they are only slightly more expensive than a comparably priced escort squadron yet have slightly more hits and less attrition under fire. I think the changes to killing escorts on a 4+ are good and make escorts much more useful, but I'm still undecided as to if it is enough to pull more escorts into my lists.
-Vaaish

Offline Phthisis

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2011, 09:10:46 PM »
I'm not convinced that escorts are resiliant compared to cruisers. They do get a right shift against weapons batteries but they get no benefit against any other weapon and are at a significant disadvantage against assault boats. Also they hemmorage VPs. A crippled cruiser only gives up the same VPs as a single escort, but the same amount of hits kills 3 escorts.  Seems like you would need to use cruisers to protect their own escorts?
It seems to me that its an escort's manoverability, not its speed or firepower, that is their greatest asset.  They can be turned to engage enemy ships engaging from the rear immediately, whereas it would take a cruiser two.  That's handy on defense.  But on offence they don't have the resiliance to go toe-to-toe against cruisers in formation.
Im wondering if they would work in a different capacity.  Perhaps I can take squadrons of 3 and place them in b2b with my capital ships.  They can add their firepower when engaged and everyone lends turret support.  This can free up some squadrons from fighter CAP so they can go on offense.   Does that sound rediculous?

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Attack craft vs. Escorts
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2011, 10:18:46 PM »
Compared to cruisers escorts ARE more resilient in every respect EXCEPT for assault boats. That single weakness to AB is what diminishes them considerably in my mind, though the jury is out with the change to killing on a 4+ how much more attractive they will be. Why is this so? Take the lunar, 2 shields and 8 hits for 180 points. Now take 5 swords, 5 shields and 5 hits for 175 points. Ignoring firepower for the moment to look at how they each hold up, a lunar can take 6 hits before it is crippled (2 shields and 4 hull). The escort squadron can also take 6 hits before it's counted as crippled (3 shields and 3 hull). Now, there are a variety of means to get those hits in, but in both cases it'll take around 12 lances to net the 6 hits needed to cripple either one which, given the average Chaos fleet mounts between 10 and 20 lances, it a fairly considerable firepower investment even when we leave BFI out of it. However, the equation changes when we hit WB because of two things. First, escorts take considerably fewer dice for the same amount of batter strength as capital ships. Second, escorts can easily position themselves abeam with their ability to turn without moving and their 90` turns further reducing number of dice rolled. What this means is that you have to allocate a considerable amount more firepower eliminate or cripple an escort squadron or allocate lances which would be better served against capital ships.

Now, about going toe to toe with a cruiser formation. All they need to do is time things to AAF behind the cruisers and they can then lock on while staying in the rear arc and only presenting an abeam aspect to return fire. How long do you think a lunar can stand up to the FP20 of those 5 swords when it's only getting 2 battery dice and 2 lance dice in return?

Of course this all falls apart once AB hit the table, but the point is Escorts can be extremely difficult to kill. I've had a full squadron of 6 swords cripple an undamaged, braced slaughter in a single pass and then take the firepower of the entire fleet and coming out with three ships intact. Use them smartly and they will annoy the tar out of enemy ships and easily pick of damaged ones. Put them in the line and charge in and you will see them die quickly. Since there's always a strong possibility of facing escorts you need to either have lots of AB (not viable with IN) to put them on the defensive, escorts of your own to intercept anything that tries to get behind you, or light cruisers that can maneuver quick enough to threaten enemy escorts. I personally prefer the last option, but, if you take escorts, squadrons of three or five are an effective way to go.
-Vaaish