August 05, 2024, 05:20:13 PM

Author Topic: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG  (Read 16016 times)

Offline Dark Depths

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2011, 11:13:56 AM »
Thanks commander.

As for the turret issue.  I don't see the current rules as a problem.  They are simple, and they don't produce weird results most of the time.  And it works against all the different races types of ordnance.  It just sounds like you are making a simple thing more complicated just for a debatable amount of change.  One of the principal rules of writing a wargame:  keep it simple if it can be.  Unneccersary complication slows the game down and makes it less enjoyable.

Offline barras1511

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2011, 12:11:26 PM »
I strenuously object to the idea that my beloved iconoclasts are a waste of points.  They are quite useful at intercepting ord and running down other escorts.

For the price you pay for them they are a waste of points. I would take any of the capital ships of chaos over our escorts and only fill out on escorts once I can no longer afford cap ships.
Which would you take a carnage or 6 iconoclast escorts? Escorts in their current role are a suicide squad or fill! They are cheap easy victory points for your opponent. That being said they can be useful for the reasons you have given. I wish to make them have a more stand out role so they need to be taken for fleet purposes.

Offline Dark Depths

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2011, 12:53:00 PM »
Really?  Escorts are just 'fill'?  Are you sure you are using them correctly?  I always take escorts, not loads mind, but for 1500 pts, usually 4, Swords mostly, for my IN.  Don't expect them to take on cruisers, thats not the point of them.  In fleet battles I use them to finish off crippled ships, anti-escort duties, and making flank attacks to support the main cruiser advance.  Of course the equivalent in points in escorts can't take on a cruiser of the same points value, but as I said, thats not the point of escorts.  As for being easy VP's, only if you let them be shot up.  If you keep them safe until they can fulfil their purpose, this won't happen.

Offline barras1511

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2011, 01:28:01 PM »
please note that was specifically for chaos

Offline Dark Depths

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2011, 01:58:30 PM »
Still don't agree with you i'm afraid.  Their extra manouverability is very handy, in the Chaos fleet as well.   Yes, a Carnage class is more effective in a straight fight.  But 6 iconoclast escorts (18fp WB) firing at the rear of a cruiser is also pretty darn good.  Their threat can distract an enemy, or if he ignores them, they have the potential to do some hefty damage, if you keep them safe, and don't expose them to fire.  Escots can usually turn to get the best firing angle possible too, making their firepower even more useful. 

If your opponent has lots of escorts, or light cruisers, then the best defence against them are escorts of your own.  Yes, I know you can use ABs or bombers, but you'll probably need these to combat the enemy's cruisers; you probably won't have enough ordanance to do everything.

So escorts do have a useful role to fill in fleet actions.  As for low point scenarios (convoy for example), having a squadron of escorts is really important as they can quickly move to where they are needed most, which a standard cruiser cannot as it cannot turn quickly enough.

Offline barras1511

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2011, 02:25:55 PM »
Really?  Escorts are just 'fill'?  Are you sure you are using them correctly?  I always take escorts, not loads mind, but for 1500 pts, usually 4, Swords mostly, for my IN.  Don't expect them to take on cruisers, thats not the point of them.  In fleet battles I use them to finish off crippled ships, anti-escort duties, and making flank attacks to support the main cruiser advance.  Of course the equivalent in points in escorts can't take on a cruiser of the same points value, but as I said, thats not the point of escorts.  As for being easy VP's, only if you let them be shot up.  If you keep them safe until they can fulfil their purpose, this won't happen.
What cruiser (not light cruiser) could you buy for those points (140) in IN? I guess that they must be fill in your fleet also. You use them as gun boats. I previously stated people use them for this. You hold them back from the enemy? Why? To deny easy VPs!
Thank you for proving my point.

Escorts in war are meant to be a target (shield) for the enemy to shoot at rather than your larger capital ships. Does this fit with the current game? Escorts should outnumber cruisers and battle ships within a combined fleet. At the moment there is no way you would do so unless playing 1k or less and only then because you don't have a choice. It would be incidental rather than deliberate. That being the case, they can not be fore filling their proper role within fleets encompassed in the current rules. Therefore this optional advanced rule would offer a reason to include more.

Offline Dark Depths

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2011, 03:14:12 PM »
Why not light cruiser?  That seems arbitary.

As for filling, again, no.  When my swords, or in my chaos fleet, Iconoclasts Idolators, aren't protecting my batleship's rear, they are held back to finish off crippled enemy ships, to alow my dedicated gunship cruisers to get on with crippling more cruisers.  You don't need a fully fledged cruiser to kill a crippled cruiser, its overkill.  So escorts are perfect for this.  But until they are needed, why expose them to fire they are not designed to face?

As for being shields, it depends on what era of history you are referring too.  Anything up to WWII then you are incorrect.  In WWII we start to see escorts used to defend capital ships against aircraft and submarines, a game mechanic that we can see in BFG.  They were never designed to be amazing against hordes of aircraft, as there's only so much firepower you can put on an escort's hull. 

But against incoming fire from other capital ships then again, no.  Lets take the Bismark.  The destroyers were never used to shield the RN cruisers from fire, they were used to fire torpedo salvos, before retreating to a safe distance.  Who in their right mind uses escorts as a shield against capital ship fire?   

Post WWII destroyers are used to be the main fleet aircraft defence.  But BFG is not based on post WWII fleets but on wooden sailing ships, WWI and a little bit on WWII.  Asking for escorts that are great at Aircraft defence will not fit the fundamental game mechanics.

Giving escorts greater power in any field will make them unbalanced.  They are ok at what they do, be it torpedo runs for cobras, or gunship duty for swords.  We have the firedagger for flak cover, and i'm sure if someone wanted to do it, an equivalent could be made for Chaos.  They are relatively hard to shoot at  the WB table.  Other than that, I don't see the overwhelming need to make escorts any better. 

As for escorts not being present in BFG fleets in the numbers they are in historical fleets, well, if you actually look at where the destroyers are in historical fleets I assure you they are not in the battle line being shot at! Lets take two well known examples:

Trafalgar- Frigates held back on both sides for scouting duties.

Jutland- Frigates held back to occasionally nip out and fire torpedoes and attack the opponent's escorts, and cover the flanks of the fleets against surprise attacks; leaving the capital ships to slug it out between themselves.  E.G., Scheer's use of them to cover his retreat with torps.  Which is perfectly feasible with 4 infidels in BFG. 

So actually, historical fleets did use many frigates, but they were not seen in the main battle lines anywhere near as much as you imply.  Therefore, few of them should be present actually on the table top in BFG, they have different roles.

So, I before trying to be an smart arse, don't say "thank you for proving my point", until I actually have.

Offline horizon

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2011, 07:24:09 PM »
Escorts are underrated by many.

Escorts are good and cool.

Somewhat more nifty to use but a valuable asset to my fleets.


Here is what I run:
Chaos/Renegade : 9 escorts
AdMech: 6 escorts
Tau CPF: 9 escorts
Craftworld Eldar: max 4 (fluff would be 0 in most cases...)
Imperial Navy: 9 escorts

Corsair Eldar, ehm 2 capital ships.

Offline Dark Depths

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2011, 07:32:11 PM »
In a 2000pts IN fleet usually have 3 swords, and 3 firestorms.  Sometimes I swap out the firestorms and go for 4 cobras instead.  Or if i'm up against Eldar I go for 6 swords. 

Offline horizon

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2011, 07:49:47 PM »
Ugh, I hate tailoring (taking specific ships (Swords) for a specific opponent).

I always make 1500pts fleet no matter what. Coolest is if I don't know what fleet my opponent will take.

Offline Dark Depths

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2011, 08:51:22 PM »
If it was a stand-alone game i'd agree with you, I hate tailoring.  Which is why my regular 2k fleet list has 3 swords in as standard, sometimes 6 if I don't fancy using my Dauntless.

However, most of my games are related to an ongoing campaign, so I know i'm facing Eldar, therefore I bring out more frigates!  Which is exactly what Admirals would do in the fictional 40k world if they know they're facing nasty Eldar.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2011, 09:02:03 PM »
Ugh, I hate tailoring (taking specific ships (Swords) for a specific opponent).

I always make 1500pts fleet no matter what. Coolest is if I don't know what fleet my opponent will take.

I hate tailoring too. Then again most fleets I play can't really tailor (Orks, Demiurg, occasionally tau).

That's why I like the campaign system.

Offline horizon

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2011, 09:02:51 PM »
Ah well, never played a campaign. :)

Offline Dark Depths

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2011, 11:02:09 PM »
Thats one of the great things about a campaign.  If you have the ship (s) in your fleet, you can pick and choose the fleet you want to use.  Which I think is perfectly ok fluff-wise.  You wouldn't go hunting a rogue Battleship with a few light cruisers now would you?   ;)  But at the same time, you are limited by whats on your fleet list.

Have you really never played a campaign?  I've rarely played a non-campaign game, because the BFG campaign rules are excellent.  The current campaign is one of a series played in the same sector for the past five years (although of the original group, i'm the last one left), and we've (most me, nobody else was that bothered) created an in depth back story for most of the sector now.  Its very fulfilling.


Offline barras1511

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Re: Advanced optional rules for turrets in BFG
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2011, 02:46:13 AM »
The designers of this game wanted a Jutland feel over a Midway feel. Not the exclusion of Midway or else there would be no AC. Manowar was a Trafalgar feel. I am not against escorts. I feel they are over costed for what you get in this game. I would take a ship of the line of escorts because of this. I am a primary SM and Chaos player. Both of these races have escorts that are over costed. If Chaos had swords at 35 I would take them over Iconoclasts and Iconoclasts are about the only viable escort in chaos list for the points paid and then they have the flaws I have mentioned. Our torp boats are so espensive they are only usable against torp heavy fleets like IN and that would be in a stand alone game. IN needs its escorts due to speed and line factors of it cap ships. I do not deny that the IN is better for having escorts. Chaos and SM do not need them and they only become useful. I have a very low opion of escorts in Chaos and SM.

This is not an agruement about the costs or abilities of escorts but the ability for an unsupported battleship to be almost immune to bombers and game rules that currently cause fighters to cause more damage against battleships than bombers. Fluff this out any which way you want it still amounts to this. This is flawed logic.
These rules would give you another reason to need more escorts and fix this anomaly.