Are the Eldar movement rules broken? Whats the alternative?

[barras1511]

Why is the Eldar fleet so powerful in the hands of a skilled opponent? If you know what your doing with them they are almost impossible to defeat with IN Chaos SM etc. If you lose 1 game in 6, your doing really bad with them. My conunrum is I actually like the Eldar rules and the difficulty in fighting them. I hate having the blast me for 3 turns and when I finally get into them, they bug out because they have caused so much damage it is a win to them to do so. What is the solution. I prepose making a change to the special order lock on.
At the start of the game, tournament or campaign you are playing you may take Lock On as it is written in the book or you take it as a version of the second edition 40k rule Over Watch.
I would make it so that any ships under Lock On (2) can pause his opponents turn at the begining of any of his phases to fire any number of locked on ships at reduced fire capacity. This would involve a right column shift for WB and a -1 to hit for lances (5+). Ordinance could not be fired under this rule. No changes in direction would be allowed under Lock On 2. Once on lock on 2 you could not shoot in your turn. Remove the dice from any ship that fires.
This rule would represent the difference in training between fleet operations and system defense.
What do people think?

[lastspartacus]

We arent talking MMS eldar, right?  You at least stand a chance against that

MMS IIRC was created as an alternate to eldar rules, so id suggest just going that route.  Its not yet perfect, but its sooooo much better.

[horizon]

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/archive/rules/gothic/geldarmms01.html

[barras1511]

Sorry about this post. I didn't even know about these rules. Thank you for giving me the heads up.

[Valhallan]

yep. mms is the best solution imho. though overwatch would be fun to play with in smaller games - it would probably destroy msm eldar though, despite its good flavor. i may try to incorporate that into my bfg/necromunda rpg i'm workin on.

oh, and merry christmas

[Xyon]

A bfg/necromunda rpg?  amazing! feel free to PM me details if you dont feel like posting them here, or do you have a thread on here or anywhere where you are talking about this?

but yeah, move move shoot eldar are easier to hit.

I do like the overwatch idea though,  instead of tacking it on to lock on,  making 'overwatch' a new special order would be cool.

[fracas]

IMO it isn't the MSM movement that is the problem. I actually like it as it more accurately represent their agility.
It's having holofield on top of MSM that is the problem if there is a problem. Would not change MSM but would consider weakening holofield first.

[horizon]

Wrong, in open space and vs Necrons Eldar are toasted.
MSM IS the key problem to everything Eldar related. It also breaks a core game mechanic which isn't very nice to do.

[fracas]

Necron owns Eldar because they largely ignore the benefits of holofield. This largely suggest the strength of eldar is the holofield not MSM. Take away the holofield then they are toast despite having MSM.
Think about it.

[horizon]

If Necron had Ork speed then their special weapons would do nothing.

It is due the fact Necrons have high speed& good turns & good weaponry they win.

Thus the problem ain't the holofield.

[fracas]

Not the necron speed cause they cannot turn like eldar can to escape.
But eldar melt to necron not because they got caught movement wise but the holofield offers no safety.
When any other fleet catches eldar the holofield resilience keep eldar safe.

[commander]

If Necron had Ork speed then their special weapons would do nothing.

It is due the fact Necrons have high speed& good turns & good weaponry they win.

Thus the problem ain't the holofield.

I've not played that much against Eldar but, IMO, the holofield is part of the problem; too high a saving versus lances and AC, too fragile versus WB. However, I see MSM, which breaks with movement of any other fleet, incl Necrons, as the main problem.
Both should be fixed.
For the moment, I don't have any suggestions worked out.

[Dark Depths]

In my group we still play msm, because at the moment we don't think the mms rules are fully worked out.  To be honest, if you play against Eldar a fair bit, you do get better.  And remember, the Eldar are meant to win more often than not, vs. IN/ Chaos anyway, as they are so much more advanced.  So msm is characterful, if annoying!     

[horizon]

Then give feedback on what could be improved on the mms rules!

MSM is not characterful. It is a flaw, a mistake.

[Dark Depths]

When someone fixes the mms rules we'll use them.  But until then we'll stick to msm, as at least we know where we are with them!  I agree that mms is better, in theory. However, I rarely play with Eldar myself, and there's only one other Eldar player in the group at the moment, so i'm reluctant to learn rules before they've been fixed. 

As for characterful, I meant insofar as the msm rules allow the Eldar to win on a regular basis, which is characterful.  The mechanics for msm are less so...