Eldar MMS v2.0

[Valhallan]

the holofields in v1.9 work exactly the same way vs WB's as MSM rules. the resilience vs. WB comes from the shields in 1.9 - not the holo's.

oh, and horiz, was talking with a buddy and we thought we'd run this by you:
holofields:
>60cm =3+ save
45>target>60 = 4+ save
30>target>45=5+ save
15>target>20=6+ save
<15cm holo's don't work.

no additional shifts for wb, just a basic saving throw - havn't playtested it yet, but it may be simpiler than the LD based tests for holos you suggested; the main issue i have is that if you take LD to shoot at eldar, do you test PER TARGET or just once per ship attempting to fire? - or do you test seperately per firing arc?

[horizon]

Hi,
that's a lot of ranges. In a previous MMS edition the saving throw vs lances had more bands and most disliked it.

My intention with the 'Ld-holo' was that the firing ship could make one test. If failed that ship cannot shoot anymore. A next ship may try to do better.

Problem with adding another dice roll per your suggestion is that more luck comes into play. More dice roll = more luck dependant.

[maddog]

If people prefer holofields, what's wrong with using the original rules for them?  I'm sure you've already playtested these rules for an earlier version.

Many of the options getting thrown out into the 'series of tubes' called the internet are arguably worse than the original Holofield rules for the Eldar player.  But Holofields alone aren't enough to stand up to increased fire taken.  So then my question to you would be, how do you create some survivability, adjusting for the fact that Eldar MMS fleets take so much more fire?  That was the point of shields in the first place.

 

[horizon]

Well, the original holofield rules are completely unbalanced in the fact that batteries are much better then lances. Under
MMS the difference would even be increased as batteries profit from close range fire.
Now, with a ruleset like this, we can balance the weapon options. Thus enemies are not tempted to tailor since it won't have an effect.

I'm mind melting on the subject.

[maddog]

I'm conflicted on the quality of guns vs. Eldar players.  You're most likely firing on Eldar closing in MMS, vs. in MSM if you can even hit them, you're firing away or abeam.  However, increased movement means Eldar fleets will trail their enemies, and if the Admiral is good he can keep his enemies out of range.  Scratch that, I'm not conflicted at all.  Eldar players can always stay just out of range, MMS or MSM doesn't matter.  So using Holofield rules (given the fact that Eldar are most likely on the closing table) means that guns will actually get a huge boost vs. Eldar players using MMS.  This would unbalance guns even more vs. Eldar.

[horizon]

Depends on which holofield rules you use.

[maddog]

That's why I like your Holofield rules much better.  Because any way you look at it WB's only get stronger vs. Eldar in the original rules.  But your Holofield rules are not survivable enough to be the only line of defense vs. an Eldar player.

One thing you might do is just use your Holofield rules and no shields, but make Eldar ships either waaaaay tougher (I'm talking 2 hit escorts and 16 hit BBs) or significantly cheaper (like 100 point Auroras, or cheaper)

If you're unsatisfied with the system, that's why I'm throwing these ideas out there.  Personally I see no problems with V 1.9.  The ships are so expensive that you don't really have a lot of hits on the board, and the WB column shift is only really to make it so you're not getting owned under a hail of fire from their guns as you're closing on them.

If shields+holofields are too good, I think you should tweak small (holofields), before you go big (shields).  Or find a way to lower the quality of shields by a smaller amount, rather than throw them out altogether. 

[carlohgr]

hi there

I just singed up and i do not know anyone around, but i played with your MMS rules and reaally enjoyed them, to the point i customized one of my Eclipse cruiser to transform it in the Supernova battlecruiser

I've readed your posts, and i'm very happy to see that people still plays and develops this great game, cause the GW never really put any effort to debug it. Before downloading the MMS rules, people simply refused to play versus my eldars any game and scenario, thanks to the overwhelming power of the original MSM; (Not mentionig the craftworld and their armor 5+ wraithships).

I would like to suggest an idea to your holofields (but still i do not complain about having shields on eldar ships, expecially mine)

remove the shileds (sigh)

keep the turrets, holofields will not affect bombers and torpedo (but increase turrets performances can be good)

keep the catastrofic damage roll on 5+

give back to all vessels an armour of 4+

make holofields give a negative shift on WB (any range)

add this rule to the damage of lances and batteries for holofields:
15 cm or less      - with armour 4+, both batteries and lances hits on a 4+
from 15 to 45 cm - batteries AND lances hits on a 5+
over 45 cm         - batteries AND lances hits on a 6+
of course this "hardness" is not related to the actual armour of the ship, but to the difficults to aim at it

This rule will mantain the balance between lances and batteries, cause modify the same way both weapon systems, and fasten the play, cause no more dice rolls are added. I do know many players likes to roll many dices, but other players like me dont like to spend a whole hour waiting for his dumb opponent to count and roll tons of dices (it happened to me, i swear)

As for imperial nova gun i could suggest this: roll 1d6-1 (minimum 1) instead of 1d6 for the number of hits taken by the ship when is hit by the nova. i do know imperial players could complain, but remember that eldar ships have 2 hit less compared to theirs.
On the other hand, since imperials have ships too expensive compared to their performances, we "Eldars" could skip this rule, since we are destined to win anyway.


Finally let me say this too: you could use any rule you want for holofields, give Eldars mms and no shields, but the final balance is given by the cost of the ship
your past rules balanced pirates and craftword's fleets using the supernova "trick"
compared to the cost of craftword vessels, no pirate capital ship was worth its point, but the Supernova was a true monster, his strenght was superior to many special ships of the craftword, and his cost was low. This way, by adding a single supernova in a pirate fleet, its firepower became balanced if compared to a craftworld fleet.
i'm sorry to say that i do not like this, is the only thing of your 1.9 rules i disliked.
I do know that this was done to make pirates use more escorts and craftworld more capital ships, but as mentioned before, this can be done by applying restriction on the fleet list, like 1 cruiser every 3 escorts

Forgive me if my grammar is poor, as you can guess english is not my main language

[horizon]

Hi Carloghr,

thanks for feedback & participation. Grammar is good enough.

armour will be 5+ prow /4+ rest

Your holofield idea :
I do know some people dislike the fact if lances didn't hit on a 4+ (rule mechanic).

Balance wise ain't bad.

supernova: you suggest?

Nova Cannon: FAQ 2010 / holofield has no effect

[Gron]

I'm just tossing this out without knowing if it has been addressed already as I do not have any eldar players around (thou one DE fleet exists but don't play).
Are holofields in space that much different from the ground based eldar technology?
I seem to recall that in the good old days of Titan Legion, the eldar titan holofield were in direct effect of how fast it moved (not distance to target), ie a stationary titan did not benefit from the holofield or had only a minimum protection if any. And vs a fast moving titan you would just be happy if your fire was in the general direction of the titan at all

[horizon]

All shield/holofield (rules) removed, replaced by new holofield system : no shields

Ideas

eldar mms without shields:
turrets take care of ordnance, nova cannon per faq 2010.

Holofield Ideas

i) Leadership test
Enemy must make a Leadership test before it can shoot at an Eldar ship. Apply the following modifiers:

> 30cm = - 2 Leadership
15-30cm = - 1 Leadership
<15cm = 0 Leadership

This applies vs all gunnery / direct fire attacks.
(this being a Rogue Trader RPG adaption)

ii) Regeneration

roll a D6 per remaining damage point, on a 6 one point of damage is restored.
A ship can be regenerated up to its starting maximum. Only 1 hit per turn can be restored this way.
note: a crippled ship can uncripple itself this way.

this with current mms to hit modifiers for eldar:
holofield = right shift vs batteries
holofield = save throw vs lances: 6+ 15-30cm / 5+ >30cm. <15cm none.

Warmaster Ancaris (port maw)

iii) Adjusting Hit rolls :
right shift gunnery

add this rule to the damage of lances and batteries for holofields:
15 cm or less - with armour 4+, both batteries and lances hits on a 4+
from 15 to 45 cm - batteries AND lances hits on a 5+
over 45 cm - batteries AND lances hits on a 6+

carlogh (sg forum)

iv) re-roll hits
when a ship succesfully hits the eldar ship it must re-roll the dice. Second roll stands. Lock on negates.

Ray Bell

[RayB HA]

After further consideration, that last idea should have the re-roll after lock-on.

Cheers,

RayB

[carlohgr]

Hi again, and sorry if i answer to your mail so late.

About your question on how to balance the craftworls and the pirates,

Balance wise ain't bad.

supernova: you suggest?

for now i can't say details, cause i dont know clearly what will be your new rules.
So, i've separated my ideas into the main elements a fleet is created:
- Story & Background
- Single Ship Concept
- Fleet formations Concept

Speaking of the background:
Pirates should have faster hit and run ships, not like before, when Wraithsips were more agile and costed much less than their pirate counterparts.
Eldar Pirates are what says their name: Raiders, they rarely have a place to defend, they assault transports to survive, and escape when larger fleets come to hunt them. So their ships should be designed for speed and agility to survive.
Craftworld Eldars are different, they are a regular army, a fleet builded to defend their artificals homeworlds, so a fleet that many times can't retreat.
They should have ships heavier and with better armaments.

Speaking of Ship Classes
Don't "retouch" the ships cost if possible, make craftworld pay for his firepower and pirates pay for their agility.
Pirates: Make the pirates cruisers turn 90°, so can act in formation with its escorts (the heavy cruiser and the battleship should still have less manouverability).
You could also give the Eldar heavy escort 2 hull points, after all is huge, and costs so much.
Craftworld: Make Wraithships turn 45°, mantain its firepower and the weapons selection, if compared to the pirate cruisers will have less power & agility, but will cost much less too.
Give to the Dragonship a weapon range of 45, that compensate for its lack* of manouverability and speed (*compared to other eldars ships)
Don't forget that craftworld ships should have access to boarding crafts & torpedoes, and this alone, make their capitals ships "heavier" than the pirates, even without adjusting their cost.

Fleet Lists Ideas:
Till now i've spoken about single ships balance, but we have to consider the fleet formations too.
Usually the battles are done with fleets of 750 or 1500 points, and many fleet lists are done so you cannot have a Battleship with only 750 points.
Imperial and Chaos, at best, can use a grandcruiser like the Vengeance into battles of 750 points as well.
You could arrange the eldar fleets so, with 750 points the pirates cannot use their supernova grandcruiser, and must play with 2 cruisers and 4 to 6 escorts, or 1 cruiser, 2 light cruiser, and 4 to 6 escorts.
You coul also limit the pirate list so you must have 2 escorts (or 1 heavy escort) for every cruiser, and 1 escort for every Light cruiser.
For larger formation, you could put a limit of 1 supernova for every 1000 points (and 3 escorts).
An Eldar craftworld fleet of 750 points, should be able to play with 2 Wraith and one Dragonship.
A fleet with 1000+ points could use the Flame of Azurian special Dragonship.

I hope i wrote it well enought to be understood.

Now, about my idea of the holofields, i'm sorry you didn't liked it, but still i dont agree with a thing you said:

Your holofield idea :
I do know some people dislike the fact if lances didn't hit on a 4+ (rule mechanic).

You should dont care too much of what people like or dislike, of course you must consider different opinions, but you are the one who's writing the rules now, so you are the leader.
As a leader you priorize game balance and game fun (fast and easy rules that reflects the racial traits) right?
Every time a rule is changed, of course some formations can loose strenght and some can gain it, but still, as long the overall game is balanced, peoples should not complain.

Let me explain it with mathematics:
I dont understand how people dislike if can't hit with lances on a 4+, but don't complain when after that, the eldars have a save roll.
In the past you gave a save roll of 5+ on lance's hits, and a lance scored an hit on a 4+.
That means that you hit succeful 4 times on 6 multiplied for 3 times on 6.
The result is 2/6, that is equal of a roll of 5 or 6.
Statistically speaking you already made the lance hit on a roll of 5+ in your mms 1.9 rule mechanics (that was alot better than the 1 on 12 of the original ones).

I hope i've been helpful.

[horizon]

Quick: yes I write them, but if I install a rule to win x people and drive away x people there is no gain. So I rather have sometjing to gain x+ people and only drive away x- people.

later more, not time

Thanks!

[carlohgr]

ok... well the auto translator had a bad time and me too with your message, but in the end i was able to read it (i hope)

Quick: yes I write them, but if I install a rule to win x people and drive away x people there is no gain. So I rather have sometjing to gain x+ people and only drive away x- people.

i never said to write a rule to make some people win, or i would play the craftworld with the orginal rules of GW
my ideal game should be that any fleet, in even battle conditions, should win 50% of the times versus any other fleet of the game
that's also why i don't like necron have a special rule that ignore holofields