April 03, 2025, 10:38:10 PM

Author Topic: Eldar MMS v2.0  (Read 69720 times)

Offline KalTaron

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2009, 10:04:04 AM »
Hello BH, I'm back. *necron*

What I'm not exactly happy with is the resilience of MMS Eldar against certain weapons. Contrary to MSM WBs aren't much good against MMS but Lances work very well. They are also quite vulnerable to ordnance.
All three points aren't good for the meta-game IMO. Mind you, I don't want to return to the near invulnerability they had under MSM but a little shift would be good IMO.

My suggestions:
- Holofields and BMs don't add up against WBs
- Holofield provides 4+ save against direct fire weapons (Lances etc.)
- Holofield has generally no effect under 15cm
- turrets may reroll hits or increase number of turrets for most ships

@random armour
No, better not. Randomness on something so important is too much like the old MSM rules.
5/4/4 armour or 5/5/4 would be something to consider though. Esp. 5/4/4 would probably make a lot of sense for many ships.

PS: How's your version going Ray? I'm eager to see it.

Offline horizon

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2009, 07:58:56 PM »
Hi Kal,

I've seen Ray's version and it has some neatness, yet I don't think it will be a popular variant for some reasons.

I've played with 4+ armour allround. Raid against a Tau fleet. Report should be on TacCom. So against ordnance fleet and with lower armour. I won. In the end of the battle I started losing attrition and disengaged. Regarding vps a convenient win but one or two more turns it could have changed a lot. Felt good.

Offline Sapphon

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2009, 03:49:05 PM »
A lot of comments mention that MMS Eldar are not vulnerable to weapons batteries.  It's true that they have reasonable armor and shields, like a more conventional ship, AND the holofield right-shift typical of the Eldar.  This is pretty significant.  But I'm wondering if players are taking into account the fact that Eldar weapons are on the front of the ship?

If a ship's weapons are on the front, it must face its target to fire.  If Eldar do all their movement before firing, they end their turn facing their targets.  This means that a typical Imperial/Chaos line of battle will be firing on attacking Eldar ships at Closing orientation - even if the Eldar admiral cleverly places his target at the extreme edge of his fire arc so that the 10cm minimum will bring the ships into an abeam orientation in the human captain's turn, the ship behind the target in line will get a bow rake.

When playing as human fleets against MMS Eldar, are testers getting a significant number of Closing shots?  If they are, are they effective?  If they are not, why not?  Would a change in formation help this?


Offline KalTaron

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2009, 08:43:46 PM »
IIRC even a closing shot at an escort will be modified to the rightmost column as soon as a BM is involved.
So closing doesn't make much difference.

Offline horizon

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2009, 08:27:07 AM »
Squadroning, spread battery fire over various escort (squadrons).

Offline horizon

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2010, 01:40:14 PM »
Heya hoya,

well somehow mms regained some renewed online attention. An issue that has been come back (once again) is that eldar mms are too resilient. And that a lotsa players will never ever accept mms if they have conventional shields.

So I got back and forth, made a cool excel file, check attachment.

In the end this is a ruling idea I want to propose:

1)
shields => wraithbone regeneration

wraithbone = eldar take damage

following ideas:

i) roll a D6 :  If the roll equals or exceeds the remaining damage points it regains 1 hit.
ii) roll a D6: on a 5+ the ship regains one point of damage
iii) roll a D6 per remaining damage point, on a 6 one point of damage is restored.

A ship can be regenerated up to its starting maximum

note: a crippled ship can uncripple itself this way.

this with current mms to hit modifiers for eldar:
holofield = right shift vs batteries (not under 15cm?)
holofield = save throw vs lances: 6+ 15-30cm / 5+ >30cm. <15cm none.
no conventional shields

thanks to Warmaster Ancaris for the wraithbone generator idea.

2)
Another idea is the Leadership idea.

An enemy ship has to take a Leadership test to fire at Eldar:
(Holofields distort radar).
These are in fact rules as present in the Rogue Trader RPG from Fantasy Flight Games.

modifiers
Above 30cm : Leadership -2
Between 15-30cm : Leadership -1
Under 15cm : Leadership 0

No conventional shields, no other holofield effect.

Offline Valhallan

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2010, 07:01:22 PM »
With the ability to Move twice though, MMS eldar could move from a fire zone to well out of range of 60cm weapons. if they had wriathbone regen, they could just continue to run, drawing out those big engagments even more, allowing a good admiral to suffer virtually zero damage.

MMS eldar gets a double A+ in my book, they are much more what I expected Eldar to act like when I first began this game.

a link to Ray's version anyone?

Offline horizon

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2010, 09:20:18 PM »
Thanks for the thumbs up.

True on regeneration.

I am on the verge of dropping shields in favour of the Ld variant.
Just because I like that.

However, I am contemplating what to do with the current holo effect (save/shift). I do not like double adding and see the leadership effect as a good distance effect of holofields with normal gunnery modifiers (right shift above 30 and left under 15) as a good effect.

However this means Eldar should do precision movement to avoid retaliation. I think just like Eldar should.

Offline horizon

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2010, 07:36:58 PM »
All...right-y/


Eldar MMS v2.0 premises:

all armour: 5+ prow / 4+ other
turrets: re-roll missed shots (like Tau on Tracking Systems = established rule).
all v1.9 shield/holofield rules dropped, replaced by:
Holofield 'Leadership Test'.
Before enemy can shoot at Eldar ship it must make a Leadership test using the following range ingnited modifiers:
< 15 cm = Ld +/- 0
15-30cm = Ld -1
> 30 cm = Ld -2

An enemy can only attempt this once per shooting phase, if Ld test is failed no other ship may be targetted. This is in addition to any Leadership test for targetting targets further away.


Offline Caine-HoA

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2010, 11:29:55 AM »
The problem i see about this rule is that its better for some fleets then for others. Orks for example with their bad Leadership will have real difficulties while others can almost shoot as they want. And its completly "luck" dependent so when an enemy has back luck he cant attack at all and the game is more or less lost and the other way around.

Offline horizon

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2010, 05:47:04 PM »
Nah, vs Orks will be playtested, my opponents do like the rule a lot.
With the Rogue Trader RPG using the rule as well (ld based holofield) I see some testing before....

Luck Dependent? Probably, but that was the other holofield as well!!! Saving throw is just a roll afterwards to avoid damage. The Ld test is just shoot yes/no.

Same amount of dice rolling. Same amount of luck.

More chance of damage with no shields.

Look, there are people who HATE Eldar with shields, I just want to go around it... and this is a way I see possible,

Offline maddog

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2010, 11:08:45 AM »
The main problem with doing a LD yes/no system is that there's no forgiveness or opportunity for the Eldar player.  It's simply "phew, my ship can't get shot at by his 16 gun Carnage" or "Oh my god, my Void Stalker is dead because that stupid Locked on Carnage scored 10 hits"  There's no parity in a system like that.  And it means that players who rolled well on their LD or players who have built a lot of LD over a campaign will wipe Eldar MMS players.

I completely understand that some people would hate shields on Eldar, but it's really the same story with MMS or MSM.  You keep your fleet together, putting your long range shooters in the middle.  You deny them sunwards movement as best you can, and you shoot the "holy and esteemed lord christ" out of them as soon as they come to shoot at you (or sooner, if you've moved properly).

Look, WB's suck one way or another.  The total damage you can inflict with them is piddly compared to lances, torps, AC.  They were only good for fighting MSM eldar.  So for the sake of a campaign, there's no reason why players should be complaining when their lances, torps, and ord (most likely their main weapons of choice) are so much more effective.

I would much rather have my lances hit well against all my enemies than have to spend a bunch of points on crappy guns just to fight MSM eldar.

The folks who hate Eldar shields most likely long for the days when eldar ships would get destroyed by blast markers.  The fact that you can even shoot at Eldar with MMS balances the game so much that people should be dancing naked in the streets.  MMS Eldar have to engage at 30 cm, which leaves opposing fleets tons of room to work with.  It practically guarantees that you're going to be able to pull off a counterattack provided you're a good admiral.  In order to be fair to Eldar MMS players, it's almost a necessity that their ships get shields.  They're significantly more expensive to field, which means less total hits on the board than any other fleet.  They no longer get to turn 360 at the start of their movement (so their capital ships will almost always be privy to taking a few shots).

You shouldn't debuff shields for two reasons.  The days when a squadron of escorts could be destroyed by blast markers should forever be behind us.  And if you lower the amount of shields capital ships have, it'll just encourage escort spamming, (which will aggravate slow turning players even more).

One thing you might play test is having no right shift for shooting at Eldar.  Your holofields rules on lances should then apply to all DF weapons, (I feel it should also apply to NC, as not incorporating this gives IN a big, juicy boost.) 

Or, give Eldar players something like "weak shields" on top of holofields.  Mostly normal shields that fail and let the hit count on a 5+ (or something, find a number that works for you)  This would give you a 2-shield average for a Void Stalker or Wyrm.

All I can really say is that if people would rather go back to the days when Eldar fly in, waste your fleet, and then fly behind you where you can't shoot them, then be my guest and go back to MSM Eldar.  But I've fought that navy and I never want to again.  So you can't have it both ways.  It's up to you, as a player to develop the best ways to deal with the fastest moving fleet in the game.  And really, it's so much better for you that now they have shields instead of you being completely unable to shoot at them.  Nerfing them won't change the fact that you're not a good enough Admiral.  The GW BFG champion 2 years in a row fights with Tau, not Eldar.  I'm sure you can manage just fine.       

Offline horizon

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2010, 08:33:00 AM »
Hi Maddog,

thanks for commenting :

Quote
The main problem with doing a LD yes/no system is that there's no forgiveness or opportunity for the Eldar player. It's simply "phew, my ship can't get shot at by his 16 gun Carnage" or "Oh my god, my Void Stalker is dead because that stupid Locked on Carnage scored 10 hits" There's no parity in a system like that. And it means that players who rolled well on their LD or players who have built a lot of LD over a campaign will wipe Eldar MMS players.
True on the campaign. However a saving throw like the 2+ in msm is in essence the same. Shields are a form of 'flexible hits' Heck.... wait.... lol...later this post...

Quote
I completely understand that some people would hate shields on Eldar, but it's really the same story with MMS or MSM. You keep your fleet together, putting your long range shooters in the middle. You deny them sunwards movement as best you can, and you shoot the "holy and esteemed lord christ" out of them as soon as they come to shoot at you (or sooner, if you've moved properly).

Quote
Look, WB's suck one way or another. The total damage you can inflict with them is piddly compared to lances, torps, AC. They were only good for fighting MSM eldar. So for the sake of a campaign, there's no reason why players should be complaining when their lances, torps, and ord (most likely their main weapons of choice) are so much more effective.
What? Are you saying batteries are always bad? Against all opponents? That would be a completely false statement.

Quote
I would much rather have my lances hit well against all my enemies than have to spend a bunch of points on crappy guns just to fight MSM eldar.
Yes, you are saying batteries are bad.... Oh frell, you are so wrong. Weapon Batteries are an awesome weapon system, they just require tactics to be more effective.

Quote
The folks who hate Eldar shields most likely long for the days when eldar ships would get destroyed by blast markers.

MSM Eldar do get destroyed by blastmarkers on a '6'.

Quote
The fact that you can even shoot at Eldar with MMS balances the game so much that people should be dancing naked in the streets. MMS Eldar have to engage at 30 cm, which leaves opposing fleets tons of room to work with. It practically guarantees that you're going to be able to pull off a counterattack provided you're a good admiral. In order to be fair to Eldar MMS players, it's almost a necessity that their ships get shields. They're significantly more expensive to field, which means less total hits on the board than any other fleet. They no longer get to turn 360 at the start of their movement (so their capital ships will almost always be privy to taking a few shots).

You shouldn't debuff shields for two reasons. The days when a squadron of escorts could be destroyed by blast markers should forever be behind us. And if you lower the amount of shields capital ships have, it'll just encourage escort spamming, (which will aggravate slow turning players even more).
It isn;t the balance which opposes players to shields it is the background...

Quote
One thing you might play test is having no right shift for shooting at Eldar. Your holofields rules on lances should then apply to all DF weapons, (I feel it should also apply to NC, as not incorporating this gives IN a big, juicy boost.)
The Imperial Navy needs every help they can get against Eldar...

Quote
Or, give Eldar players something like "weak shields" on top of holofields. Mostly normal shields that fail and let the hit count on a 5+ (or something, find a number that works for you) This would give you a 2-shield average for a Void Stalker or Wyrm.
Another dice roll on top of a saving throw vs lances = blech. Sorry.


Hmmm, remember the regeneration idea.... what if we called shields on Eldar just regeneration? That ships have a regeneration value instead of shields? Abstraction to the max!

Thus an escort has a regen. value of 1. It just works like a shield in every aspect.

Offline maddog

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2010, 01:25:18 AM »
Hey Horizon, points well made.

Why not just throw out holofields all together and keep shields?

Holofields just make Eldar a bit harder to hit.  Throwing it out would solve a lot of the issues with Eldar being too survivable.  Shields should stick around in some fashion because now that you can shoot at Eldar without them avoiding retribution, they need to be able to survive the shooting that they wouldn't take under MSM. 

Eldar ships are expensive and they don't have a lot of hits.  Their defensibility has always been in positioning them to minimize counter attack.  They will still play this way, but shields should give them a balanced amount of help.

Taking away shields throws a lot of the game out of balance.  LD to shoot throws off campaigns.  Regeneration throws off escorts.  V 1.9 holofield rules throw off WB's.  Lack of shields dooms Eldar when fighting players with long range shooting, I.E. Chaos. 

Have you tried a playtest without holofields?  Might give it a shot.  Glad you're working this fleet out.

 

Offline horizon

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Re: Eldar MMS v1.9
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2010, 09:37:47 AM »
Holofields are characterful I think and many people want to see it on Eldar. Above shield. What do you mean with the fact that Weapon Batteries under v1.9 are 'thrown off'? Extra shifts, yeah, but under 15cm nothing.