Battlefleet Gothic, Armageddon, Bastion list

[RCgothic]

It has the same broadside firepower as a Lunar or Gothic. It has a forced Nova Upgrade for 10pts, and I would never pay more than that. I would actually prefer a non-Nova variant of the Dominator to save on points and to get more torps.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

LS, you have to differentiate bet the Dominator and the Nova Cannon. The Dominator is not a problem. The problem with the NC is the HA are so afraid of it for some reason that they keep neutering it with every release of an FAQ (activate "Detect Exag" mode) because they can't figure out a way to have players not spam the weapon.

[Plaxor]

Spamming the nova cannon is something like spamming ordinance. It's a one trick pony, and only douches do it. Actually I would prefer someone spam nova cannons against me to ordinance. Very much actually (although I've never seen more than 4 on the table.)

[BaronIveagh]

Spamming the nova cannon is something like spamming ordinance. It's a one trick pony, and only douches do it. Actually I would prefer someone spam nova cannons against me to ordinance. Very much actually (although I've never seen more than 4 on the table.)

The problem is that there are plenty of douches in the world.

[Plaxor]

Those Douches! I guess the only solution would be a 'no douchiness' rule. Similar to page five in warmachine, but the opposite.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Then prove the douches wrong. Sorry but that's what you're supposed to do. The NC is not an uber weapon. I for one am open to spamming such a fleet with the current NC rules. If that makes me a douche then so be it.

Change the rules into something better and I am agreeable to limiting it.

[Plaxor]

Then prove the douches wrong. Sorry but that's what you're supposed to do. The NC is not an uber weapon. I for one am open to spamming such a fleet with the current NC rules. If that makes me a douche then so be it.

Change the rules into something better and I am agreeable to limiting it.

I don't think it should be limited, and wonder why people are so afraid of it. Ordinance spam is a way worse thing. Last time I fought 500 points against 2 NCs I lost 1 escort and 2 hits on my krooza to it. Really it's like Sigoroth (? maybe horizon) said in the limitations thread, you just need new tactics to beat it.

I'll say for one it's really nice to not run into a shit-ton of torpedoes when you get into weapons range.

[lastspartacus]

My point is that the Dominator causes 2 problems.  It completely outshines the Tyrant as the go-to weapon battery cruiser for only 5 more points.
Additionally, it offers a cheap nova cannon option that puts all others to shame.  If the Dominator didn't exist, NC would be self regulating.

[horizon]

Nein, according to a lot the Tyrant still has a place -> Eldar hunter.
Dominator is not the cause of Nova Cannons.
Which incidentally under current rules aren't a problem either.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

My point is that the Dominator causes 2 problems.  It completely outshines the Tyrant as the go-to weapon battery cruiser for only 5 more points.
Additionally, it offers a cheap nova cannon option that puts all others to shame.  If the Dominator didn't exist, NC would be self regulating.

It's not the fault of the Dominator that the Tyrant sucks. Yes, sucks. If it had all 45 cm for 190 points, same as the Dominator, people might be fielding it more even with the conflicted problem of wanting to shoot at 45 cm resulting in a waste of the prow armor.

The Mars also has a cheap NC. So it's not true that if the Dominator didn't exist, the NC would be self regulating. That might be true if the Dominator is cheaper than the Lunar or Gothic but it isn't. The problem is not with the Dominator. The problem is an NC problem. Even if the Dominator did not exist, people will still spam the NC by using the Lunars, Tyrants, Mars and now the Armageddon. In a 1k match, instead of 5, one gets 4 NC ships (3 Dominators+1 Armageddon/Mars/Apocalypse). In a 1.5k match, one can still put 7 NC ships in (7 Dominators+change vs 7 Lunars/Tyrants+change) so no change there.

[horizon]

It's not the fault of the Dominator that the Tyrant sucks. Yes, sucks. If it had all 45 cm for 190 points, same as the Dominator, people might be fielding it more even with the conflicted problem of wanting to shoot at 45 cm resulting in a waste of the prow armor.

Heya,
two things here:

1) Batteries vs abeam 5+ armour or vs closing 6+ armour = not a lot of difference (iirc Rcgothic said nothing at all).
2) Aren't we sometimes nitpicking? 195pts for a 45cm vessel or 190pts.  Will those 5pts make a big difference in the end?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

In making lists, 5 points can go a-ways.

As for the batteries abeam vs 5+ or 6+, the point is more the Tyrant with all 45 cm can shoot at farther ranges and that's where the premium lies. I just think pricing the Dominator and Tyrant the  same would make people choose more carefully. On one hand, you have a ship which can fire at 30-150 cm and have more firepower at 30 cm. On the other, a ship with broadsides at 45 cm.

[RCgothic]

Once again, I find myself having to state that there's nothing wrong with NCs. They're nearly 3 times less destructive on average than a similar hardpoint of  torpedoes and you pay a premium for the range.

The problem is that the Tyrant is overpriced and only especially useful vs Eldar. In the flawed ships thread, we've dropped it to 180pts base, which should help it compete against the Dominator.

[BaronIveagh]

Once again, I find myself having to state that there's nothing wrong with NCs. They're nearly 3 times less destructive on average than a similar hardpoint of  torpedoes and you pay a premium for the range.

The problem is that the Tyrant is overpriced and only especially useful vs Eldar. In the flawed ships thread, we've dropped it to 180pts base, which should help it compete against the Dominator.

But still, why take it, unless you anticipate fighting eldar?

[lastspartacus]

What, a str4 battery with 2 right shifts standard is beneficial against Eldar?

For the Tyrant fix, is 6 at 30cm and 6 at 45cm better, or rather 10 @ 45?

Aren't the NC upgrades expensive?  I don't agree with them btw, not unless there are limits to them on things like Lunars and stuff they don't normally go on.  Otherwise, novas are only on battlecruisers and battleships, which I consider to be self regulating.