Battlefleet Gothic, Armageddon, Bastion list

[horizon]

So, the game offers the Imperial Navy three main fleet lists:

Battlefleet Gothic
Battlefleet Gothic Armageddon
Bastion fleet list

Now the Armageddon list has a wide choice of selection going on and the asset it can take Space Marine vessels. Added to this the cheap Master of the Fleet with high Ld and cheap re-rolls. BattleBarges, Strike Cruisers, Space Marine escorts and the Falchion Frigate are unique choices.
The list does not have acces to:
Retribution battleship, three Grand Cruisers, Overlord battlecruiser, Dominator cruiser, Dauntless light cruiser.
Added to this is the fact that the Sword & Cobra are only available as RSV variants (added costs but Marine rules).

The Bastion list misses the Space Marine ship & command options but has access to a wide range of Imperial ships. Unique to this list are the three Grand Cruisers.
The list does not have access to:
Oberon battleship, Dominator cruiser, Falchion Frigate.
It has the three standard IN escorts at a normal prize available.

The Gothic list then, the blue print of the other fleets has the same command as the Bastion list. However this list is gifted with the smalles choice of ship selection.
It has no acces to:
Oberon battleship, Apocalypse battleship, Three Grand Cruisers, Armageddon battlecruiser, Three Voss light cruisers, Falchion frigate. (And no Marines).
The list has one unique aspect: the Dominator cruiser.
That's it.

Now the Dominator is an Easter Fringe/Kar Duniash vessel. So it would be freely available in those lists as well if they existed.

Now, what should be the appeal, aside of setting and wanting to play in character of your fleet admiral, of the Gothic Fleet List?
Compared to the Armageddon list the difference is to be noticed and one could prefer the Gothic list over Armageddon because of said Dominator, but also because of the Dauntless and Sword & Cobra at normal prize.

Compared to the Bastion list these difference are lowered to the Dominator.

Through reserve rules the Bastion/Armageddon can take a Dominator on a 1:3 basis. This is enough to bring one Dominator in a 1500pts list.

So unless you want to play with 2 or more Dominators in 1500pts there is no appeal to take the Gothic list.

To further insult it all: according the Dominator background only ONE of them served in the Gothic War. Thus, the fluff player would also take only 1 Dominator in his Imperial Navy.

Thus: The Gothic List is only suited for fluff players.

This lead me to think that either:

i) The Gothic List must get something "cool" extra.
ii) The Bastion List must see some choices to be gone.

What are your opinions? Am I right? Or am I just wasting time? heh

[Vaaish]

I see the three IN lists as a means to an end. the Gothic list was the original list and therefore wouldn't have any of the ships added in the Armada book which means you take it if you like dominators. The Armageddon list is for people who like the Oberon or mixed SM/IN fleets and has the nice 1:1 CA to CB ratio. The bastion list is the all inclusive list for everything else and I see it as an update to the Gothic list minus the dominator that lets me build whatever fleet I want with a few funky additions like the ability to take Chaos ships and veteran captains.

I wouldn't change any of the lists as it only ends up limiting the player more without any benefit. In fact, I'd rather have the bastion list expand to include the Oberon.

[RCgothic]

What, indeed, is the point in having different lists?

For the IN, the Bastion list is effectively unrestricted. Why then have any restriction in the first place? Better to provide an unrestricted list and provide separate suggestions for the fluff players.

[Vaaish]

I would think that the 1:1 CA to CB ratio could cause issues if the armageddon list had access to all ship types.

[RCgothic]

But it wouldn't be a problem if the Bastion list had the few extra options.

[Plaxor]

Delete the gothic list, it exists in segmentum obscuras. Add the dominator to the Bastion list.

[commander]

The lists represent only an extremely small fraction of the IN. We play with the fleet composition we agree on and have access to any ship of the fleet we are playing.

[Plaxor]

It's kinda the same issue as the ork lists.

The Waagh list is just the pirate list with more options. They fixed this issue with the eldar by just replacing the gothic list with the 'later' gothic list.

The two chaos lists kind of have the same issue, but not as bad, the only thing the 12th crusade gets that the 13th doesn't get is that it's able to take multi-mark warmasters. Honestly I would get rid of this option and just make it entirely listed as 'black crusade'.

I would probably add in a special character to the gothic list, as it is a very specific sector. Every fleet could use one (well that have characters).

Does any one know of listings for a kar duniash based fleet? It would be nice to see what that looks like.

I imagine that the RT cruiser should be renamed to something like Hydra class cruiser, and would be much like the lunar in seg. solar, and seg. obscuras, mass produced and widely available.

[BaronIveagh]

It's kinda the same issue as the ork lists.

The Waagh list is just the pirate list with more options. They fixed this issue with the eldar by just replacing the gothic list with the 'later' gothic list.

The two chaos lists kind of have the same issue, but not as bad, the only thing the 12th crusade gets that the 13th doesn't get is that it's able to take multi-mark warmasters. Honestly I would get rid of this option and just make it entirely listed as 'black crusade'.

I would probably add in a special character to the gothic list, as it is a very specific sector. Every fleet could use one (well that have characters).

Does any one know of listings for a kar duniash based fleet? It would be nice to see what that looks like.

I imagine that the RT cruiser should be renamed to something like Hydra class cruiser, and would be much like the lunar in seg. solar, and seg. obscuras, mass produced and widely available.

One would imagine it would be something like an Armageddon list, but with only Ultramarines ships.

[Plaxor]

One would imagine it would be something like an Armageddon list, but with only Ultramarines ships.

No, there would be some IN there, they would just explode first turn from the 'awesome' and the realization that they could never compare to the ultramarines. Just look at the battle for macragge, there were pdf a lot of them, but they died instantly.

Also sicarius would be there, and would always have to disengage at the sight of the enemy. I mean he looked at the tyranid fleet and was like 'well, better the first company die instead of me'.

[BaronIveagh]

One would imagine it would be something like an Armageddon list, but with only Ultramarines ships.

No, there would be some IN there, they would just explode first turn from the 'awesome' and the realization that they could never compare to the ultramarines. Just look at the battle for macragge, there were pdf a lot of them, but they died instantly.

Also sicarius would be there, and would always have to disengage at the sight of the enemy. I mean he looked at the tyranid fleet and was like 'well, better the first company die instead of me'.

Only if we let McNeil write it.  Of course, then again, if we did that, we'd just put Space Marines on the table to represent them hopping fro ship to ship, blowing them up with thier plot powers.

[lastspartacus]

I think doing away with the Dominator completely would help alot with everything

[horizon]

Now you just should walk out silenty and scratch that remark. I hope you're joking. Coolest IN cruiser around.

[lastspartacus]

No doubt.  Yet its existence causes alot of problems.

[horizon]

No it doesn't. At all.