DE/Eldar/Tau Flawed Ships

[fracas]

Maybe I am not doing it right

My opponents plays IN, Chaos, SM, and CSM
They close they board I die

Explorer's 8 bays of mantas are great but they get neutralized (shot at or repeated fighters attacks) so far-launches aren't that good. They do on average 1.5 attacks (average 2 turrets on most cruisers)
Strike-launches put the 1 shield explorers in harm's way.

Merchants die. Taken if at all only to take heroes.

And you folks want to weaken their mainline ship? A ship that must orient as closing to be better than the lunar? And abeam is marginally better if you don't include the dead weight of merchants/explorer requirements. Leave it as is I say. Or uncouple it if made weaker.

The only change the tau need is 2 shield option for the merchant, maybe the explorer as well.

[lastspartacus]

Making it balanced, but taking it away.  And it is agreed Heros should not be restricted.

[Plaxor]

@fracas,

I've played gw tau for years, and they were my main fleet before Orks.

The merchant is fairly useless, Not something you take on its own. I know people hate having 1 shield on anything, but I've played Orks for a long time, and you learn to live with it.

The reason we decreased the power of the Hero is because it is too powerful for a 180 point ship, Str 12 wbs@45? with 2 launch bays, and 6 tau torps? The thing is that it is way perfect in the prow, whereas any other fleet can't optimize nearly so well.

Talented tau players will never lose games. I rarely lose with my tau (which was actually the original reason I started playing orks).

We removed the restriction on it as well, so it is actually easier to run a more 'shooty' fleet. Try running 6 heros and an explorer at 1500 points now. (with these revised stats) I think you'll be happily surprised.

However the merchant, everyone who takes it, takes it at 6 hits, even this is a little overcosted so this version was put to 115 points, and then to fulfill the fluff of a larger version the 8 hit upgrade was added.


for 135 points you can get a lot of 8 hit cruisers with 6 45cm wbs and 2 lances in the front, a pretty good deal. At 1500 you could take an explorer and 9 of these things, outnumbering anyone with a ship that sure is a bit easier to damage, and slow, but it still has decent range and good damage output.

[fracas]

uncoupling the hero will make a huge different
the hero in either configuration is fine as is
combined starboard/port 1 bomber does not equal 4 batteries or 2 lances

i'd rather 2 shield and 4HPs than 1 shield and 6HP


btw, a talented player will win regardless of what he plays? but that speaks more to the player than the list doesn't it?

[lastspartacus]

I think he means 2 talented players:  the tau player usually wins.  Its well documented actually.

You may like 2 shields over 6 hp better, but the model and the fluff lean heavily on the latter.  Of course said increase should keep same points cost.

[Plaxor]

I think he means 2 talented players:  the tau player usually wins.  Its well documented actually.

You may like 2 shields over 6 hp better, but the model and the fluff lean heavily on the latter.  Of course said increase should keep same points cost.

Yes, sorry for the confusing statement.

2 Shields isn't something that makes sense for the merchant. Hell... I'm somewhat surprised the hero has it. Playing Orks for a long time you learn that having 1 shield isn't so bad, as you have more hits.

Hmmm... a merchant with 6 hits for 105? I think I could see it, it needs some math behind it. Basically right now for 45 points you lose 2fp, but gain a shield, a prow deflector, 2 launch bays, and 6 torpedoes. A pretty nifty deal.

Which would mean that a better difference of 55 points could be warranted. (I.E. base cost 105 for 6 hit vers.)

[patghiggins]

DE > I think a DE CG is again to large, a CA/BC is a better option

Hey Pat, finally joined the Conversation.
A CA/CB is essentially a cruiser with more weaponry, meaning that it would have 6 hits in the world of DE. By definition an 8 hit cruiser would be a CG. CA/CBs in other fleets have the same number of hits as their standard cruisers.

Eldar/Dark Eldar Examples of each ship class:

Battleship: CE Void stalker  10hits
Grand Cruiser: CWE/CE: Flame of the Asuryan w/8 hits
Battlecruisers: CWE: Dragonship (has better weapons than a wraithship) 6 hits
Cruisers: CE: Shadow & Eclipse, CWE: Wraithship, DE: Torture, all have 6 hits
Light Cruisers: CE: Aurora & Solaris Both have 4 hits.

Eldar ships are two hits behind IN equivalents for number of hits.

Chaos heavy Cruisers are 8 points, and the IN Battle Cruisers are also 8 hits so thats why call my stats for  the heavier DE cruser a CA or BC

Tau leave AS IS

What's wrong with the Tau mods? They are done to make it more versatile of a fleet. Everyone buys the extra hits on a Merchant, but the model is big enough to have 6 hits as is, and people don't buy merchants save to get heros. To make them more viable they were made this way, with an upgrade to give them more hits (thereby fulfilling the fluff of a larger variety). Also they were upped to make them more appealing without the need to buy them to get heros.

Then the Hero, which is a bit too powerful for 180 points had its weaponry reduced slightly. Since this makes it less valuable, we decided to remove the restrictions on it. This was done partially for fluff reasons, and partially because a Hero could blow any similar class of vessel out of the water.

It is unlikely that we will do any other changes to Tau, as the other proposed things are very... out there.

Also there are a lot of things being tossed around for fluff reasons, however that doesn't incorporate the scope of this project, in this case fluff<gameplay, but some can be incorporated if it makes sense for gameplay reasons.

These two things that were done, will make the Tau fleet not necessarily look like: Explorers+Merchants=Heros, and will make the Merchant a viable CL on its own. The ship is widely considered underpowered, and rarely taken in favor of explorers.

Of All fleets the Tau probably have the fewest things 'wrong' with them.

I like the linr of thought that take the's the FE models as the 3rd generation of Tau ships, (the 2nd being the Hero)

[Plaxor]

I like the line of thought that... the FE models [are] the 3rd generation of Tau ships, (the 2nd being the Hero)

True, Evolution in Tau design= Explorer-->Merchant-->Orca-->Defender--->Hero--->Messenger? Given the space between Explorer and Hero is 1000 years, Merchant isn't listed (although presumably Tau shipbuilding philosophy comes out with something new every couple hundred years.

However it would seem that both the hero and messenger could be considered in the 'second gen' category.

So for the merchant, it shouldn't be more technologically advanced than the IN, whose CLs only have 1 shield. Although it can have more hits, as Tau vessels are noted as being forcibly larger than average to contain all the necessary systems.

However, a lance Merchant (6 hits with Ion Cannons) compared to a dauntless:

The Merchant gains: More focusable firepower (in the front) about equal on the sides. Longer range
Dauntless: 1 more lance, +10cm speed (hell of a lot more threat range) 90' turns

In my eyes the speed really counteracts the range of the Merchant, and 1 additional lance is well, slightly less than 6fp, but the firepower at that range is not as worthwhile. Not only that but the Merchant nearly always wants to keep it's prow towards enemies (for internal fleet interaction). Whereas the Dauntless' increased maneuverability makes it a lot better at being defensive/performing light cruiser duties.

I suppose I could see the merchant at 110, but that's probably the lowest.

However, on tau's win record. They have readily available access to 8lb carriers (which are 2/3 as expensive as everyone else's) and a wave of 8 bombers is more than twice as effective as a wave of 4. Not only that but tau bombers are resilient, so they're somewhat like 1.5 bombers when someone is defending against them.

Spamming ordinance is one of the best ways for people to win tournaments, if not 'the' way. Ork players do it (6terror ships and nothing else?) Tau (anyone ever seen 6 explorers, it's pretty douchey.), even Chaos have had a few cries of cheese at their Devestation lists.

Although Ork ordinance is better than 'normal ordinance' in FAQ 2007 by a sizable margin (124% effective), certainly inflating the terror ship list win record, however in FAQ 2010 they returned to a place about 80% as effective as regular ordinance. Which means that when it becomes official we won't likely see any Orks winning Adepticon.

[fracas]

In a game of maneuvers turning and speed mean alot and both are lacking in the merchant compared to the dauntless

[horizon]

Fracas,
this list won Adepticon twice:

3x Explorer, 2x Hero, 9x Orca, 3x Defender.

A Hero lowered in strength should be unrestricted. Yes.

[lastspartacus]

In a game of maneuvers turning and speed mean alot and both are lacking in the merchant compared to the dauntless

Which is why its sad that Ordnance are the most effective weapon >-<

[patghiggins]

@ Horizon In that TAU list where are the Merchants, isn't there suppose to be a merchant for every hero?

[Sigoroth]

@ Horizon In that TAU list where are the Merchants, isn't there suppose to be a merchant for every hero?

1 Hero per Merchant or Explorer.

Mind you, I'd drop the Defenders and a couple of Orcas to pick up another Hero.

[fracas]

i can understand the hesitancy to give the merchant 2 shields. fine.
but something really ought to be done to make it worth taking other than as a stepping stone to the Hero
and additional 2 hits are just not enough.

90 degree turn?
flexibility with modules? like ability to take 4 hooks? (would make it the perfect model as a Nicassaar cruiser)


thoughts?

[lastspartacus]

It is what it is.  2 hp for free and its good, I think.