DE/Eldar/Tau Flawed Ships

[horizon]

Welllll, I don't agree. I think Manta's are large enough to be a new type in BFG. A step between marker & escort.

[lastspartacus]

With Mantas being no bigger than a standard imperial bomber, and flying in solos rather than squadrons, how would it be better than a normal bomber marker?  If we can just fix this, it really helps the korvattra.  If the Kororvesh need to keep resilient ordnance for balance purposes, just say tigersharks are resilient or something, or say they fly their mantas in squadrons.

[Sigoroth]

With Mantas being no bigger than a standard imperial bomber, and flying in solos rather than squadrons, how would it be better than a normal bomber marker?  If we can just fix this, it really helps the korvattra.  If the Kororvesh need to keep resilient ordnance for balance purposes, just say tigersharks are resilient or something, or say they fly their mantas in squadrons.

What do you mean "no bigger than a standard imperial bomber"? Mantas as huge! They're bigger than Eldar Vampire Raiders. They have limited warp dive capability as well as shield generators. Imperial bombers wouldn't. That's why they're resilient. They have shields. Their shields aren't as good as those on a larger ship (like a Cobra), which is why they only get a 4+ save.

I would allow them to get their save against ship turrets too, and stick around after completing a bombing run. But I would limit their numbers to 1 per launch bay in the fleet. So if you had 12 launch bays then you can only have 12 Mantas throughout the entire game and once they're gone they're gone. Otherwise just use squadrons of tigershark bombers.

[lastspartacus]

AC are bigger in space, sig.  Yes, the Manta is big by infantry standards.  I wasn't aware they had dive tech, but yes, they have shield tech.
A Fury Interceptor nears 70 meters in length, and Starhawks are significantly larger.  These aren't Marauder bombers.
There are multiples in a squadron.

[patghiggins]

Corsairs > What about the Aurora and Solaris?

DE > I think a DE CG is again to large, a CA/BC is a better option

Cruiser/8  //  Speed 30  // turn 90 // Shadowshields // Armor 5+ // Turrets 0
Prow Weapons Batteries    30cm               12                 Left/Front/Right
Pick 2 of the following (Any Combination)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prow Shadow Lance          30cm                2                        Front
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prow Tropedoes               30cm                4                        Front
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Impaler                           AC 30cm           Special                 Front
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Fighter 30cm
Launch Bay                     Bomber 20 cm      3                          ---
                                    Assault  30cm 
Base Points 230 with upgrades it ends up a little more than CWE Dragon Ship and it must have a Dread Archon and the 3 to 1 escot to Cap rule stiil stays the same.

Tau leave AS IS

[Plaxor]

DE > I think a DE CG is again to large, a CA/BC is a better option

Hey Pat, finally joined the Conversation.
A CA/CB is essentially a cruiser with more weaponry, meaning that it would have 6 hits in the world of DE. By definition an 8 hit cruiser would be a CG. CA/CBs in other fleets have the same number of hits as their standard cruisers.

Eldar/Dark Eldar Examples of each ship class:

Battleship: CE Void stalker  10hits
Grand Cruiser: CWE/CE: Flame of the Asuryan w/8 hits
Battlecruisers: CWE: Dragonship (has better weapons than a wraithship) 6 hits
Cruisers: CE: Shadow & Eclipse, CWE: Wraithship, DE: Torture, all have 6 hits
Light Cruisers: CE: Aurora & Solaris Both have 4 hits.

Eldar ships are two hits behind IN equivalents for number of hits.

Tau leave AS IS

What's wrong with the Tau mods? They are done to make it more versatile of a fleet. Everyone buys the extra hits on a Merchant, but the model is big enough to have 6 hits as is, and people don't buy merchants save to get heros. To make them more viable they were made this way, with an upgrade to give them more hits (thereby fulfilling the fluff of a larger variety). Also they were upped to make them more appealing without the need to buy them to get heros.

Then the Hero, which is a bit too powerful for 180 points had its weaponry reduced slightly. Since this makes it less valuable, we decided to remove the restrictions on it. This was done partially for fluff reasons, and partially because a Hero could blow any similar class of vessel out of the water.

It is unlikely that we will do any other changes to Tau, as the other proposed things are very... out there.

Also there are a lot of things being tossed around for fluff reasons, however that doesn't incorporate the scope of this project, in this case fluff<gameplay, but some can be incorporated if it makes sense for gameplay reasons.

These two things that were done, will make the Tau fleet not necessarily look like: Explorers+Merchants=Heros, and will make the Merchant a viable CL on its own. The ship is widely considered underpowered, and rarely taken in favor of explorers.

Of All fleets the Tau probably have the fewest things 'wrong' with them.

[Plaxor]

Oh, and Pat, I'm photoshoping up all these rules for easy visibility and comprehension. We can post these to our group website. It will make it so you only have to look at one document to know what the current rules are for your own fleet, and at the very least, cut the FAQ in half. (and total pagecount by half as well).

We'll likely have to sit down and talk about everything at some point. After the Marvak sector's first meeting of course.

[Plaxor]

Was there any more thoughts on the Demiurg ships getting more hits or did that fizzle?

[lastspartacus]

Absolutely should.  Built dwarf tough

[Zhukov]

I own a Demiurg fleet (2 Strongholds and 4 Bastions) and I most definately say there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this fleet. Just my 2 cents I've played against Orks three times, Chaos, Imp Navy, and Ad Mech and found them to be very balanced in every engagement.

Dark Eldar Grand Cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 230 pts

Cruiser/8  //  Speed 30  // turn 90 // Shadowshields // Armor 5+ // Turrets 0

Prow Weapons Batteries    30cm               16                        Front

Pick one of the following:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prow Shadow Lance          30cm                3                        Front . . . . . . . . . . . +40 pts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prow Tropedoes               30cm                6                        Front . . . . . . . . . . . +40 pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Impaler                           AC: 30cm           3                          --- . . . . . . . . . . . +60 pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Fighter: 30cm
Launch Bay                     Bomber: 20 cm      4                          --- . . . . . . . . . . . +40 pts
                                    A-Boat: 30cm  

And don't forget the Mimic Engine! But we haven't decided what to do with that officially yet, right?
Obviously 3 escorts needed to buy this. Dread Archon MUST be on this ship. Only one in any Dark Eldar fleet.


-Zhukov

[Plaxor]

I own a Demiurg fleet (2 Strongholds and 4 Bastions) and I most definately say there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this fleet. Just my 2 cents I've played against Orks three times, Chaos, Imp Navy, and Ad Mech and found them to be very balanced in every engagement.

I do too, I've only played maybe 5 games with them (using Xisor's rules and plasticard converted escorts). I don't think I've lost a game with them. (Played mostly against IN, and once against eldar). I think that the +2 hits thing come out of the fact that the stronghold is pretty big.

My idea on the Dark Eldar Grand Cruiser:

Cruiser/8  //  Speed 30  // turn 90 // Shadowshields // Armor 5+ // Turrets 0

Prow Weapons Batteries    30cm               16                        Front

Pick one of the following:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prow Shadow Lance          30cm                3                        Front
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prow Tropedoes               30cm                6                        Front
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Impaler                           AC: 30cm           3                          ---
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Fighter: 30cm
Launch Bay                     Bomber: 20 cm      4                          ---
                                    A-Boat: 30cm 

Sounds about right, but the lances should be str. 4 rather than three. Also as a reminder this isn't the scope of this document. For now we're revising all currently legal ships from the BBB and Armada, as well as loosely from Nate's documents. This however is good for my next project after this one....

[horizon]

@ Path,
Aurora no change
Solaris 45cm weaponry, no right shift above 30cm. No point change.

[fracas]

Played with 2 6hps merchants and 2 heroes the other night

Again more hits is not worth it for the merchants. I would have rather spent the upgrade points for a second shield.

The hero is fine as is. It is the only gunship of any worth for the fleet. Yes it may have a better profile compared to the fluff but fluff should enhance play rather than dictate it. If the hero is nerfed then it should be unrestricted cause as is you really to average it with a merchant or an explorer. And despite 8 bays explorers, with the current launch limits, just isn't that good. It cannot stay effective at range for long and with one shield just doesn't last long once the fleet engages. Btw, it too needs the second shield.

[fracas]

DE needs a flagship of 8-10 hits

[lastspartacus]

Fracas, your opinions about Tau competative level doesn't match up to their steamrolling tournament victories.
Explorers are amazing.  Heros are amazing.  Merchants should get the HP upgrade for free.

DE deserve a battleship.