DE/Eldar/Tau Flawed Ships

[Plaxor]

K, merchant will be at 20 points for 2 hits, as this is what Sig said.

Not hero specific works for me.

And will make Nid/Necron thread.

[Plaxor]

No ideas on warspheres? It is such a terrible ship.... but I think it shouldn't have BV20, instead double would be more true to rules.

Possibly range 45 wbs? Cheaper?

[Plaxor]

Added in confirmed section. Everything eldar/cwe/de just happened to get passed as there was no argument.

Hero, I added in the wb reduction so that instead of 8wb@45vs 2lances at 30 being to obvious a choice, the WBs were reduced to 6@45, a much more reasonable value in comparison to 2 lances.

Also the DE I added in the torture having 2 impalers for 20 points, as this makes sense.

[Sigoroth]

Eh, well I've certainly got arguments against those CE changes, but since I don't see MSM Eldar being fixed then I don't care what you do. I wouldn't play those values for MSM Eldar though.

[Plaxor]

Yeah, Horizon came up with them, I kinda just agreed, because I never really have played against a CWE or CE fleet until recently.

I always wondered why no one thought of the terrain system being broken rather than the movement of eldar...

[Sigoroth]

Well CE are doubly broken. If you can shoot at them they totally suck and will lose. If you can't they rule and will win. That aside there is the Strategy Rating method of battlezone (and therefore terrain) selection. This is fine, in principle, as the Eldar really would be very hard to pin down into disadvantageous terrain and should more often than not get to choose their battlefield. Similarly it might be easier in general to bring a foe to battle in more dense terrain as that might simply be the logical place to hide and so therefore to look. So the SR part is right, and the value of the battlezone that is added to this might even be fine. However, there is no randomness involved. Eldar will always get to fight in the Outer Reaches or, at worst, Deep Space. These are the best two battlezones. In my group we add a d6 to the total (so SR + BZ + 1d6) to add in some variance.

On top of this however it could be an issue of scenarios. A lot of them have no either no battlezone limitation or have a 'recommended' battlezone. Well, recommendations would only work if you're doing some purely random BZ selection method, or selection by agreement, etc. If you're using strategy ratings then it's pretty much meaningless. Maybe a more definite "this scenario takes place in this battlezone" would be a better fix.

Even with a better battlezone selection method the MSM Eldar are still boned. There's never decent terrain at tournaments, so they suck there, but even were that to be fixed somehow all these changes would only stand to fix the overall win/loss ratio of Eldar, without fixing the fact that these wins are still cheesy and the losses still ridiculous. That can only be fixed by ditching the current MSM method.

[horizon]

MSM, raider scenario 750-1500pts, turn 1:
Movement phase: Eldar move onto table.
Shooting phase: Eldar destroy enemy vessel.
Ordnance phase pt1: Eldar cripple another vessel.
Ordnance phase pt2: Eldar fly from table.

End of Game, Eldar vps win.

Opponent: "Wtf?"

I actually did that once to make a point. < evil grin >

[horizon]

Add:
Demiurg Stronghold should be 12 hits.

[Plaxor]

Add:
Demiurg Stronghold should be 12 hits.

Are you sure? the stronghold is much better than the bastion, and I couldn't see this unless the bastion was at 10 hits. Also the citadel doesn't seem worth 185, so would the ripples go here too? (8 hits?)

It would mimic orks, which seems apt for a space dwarf race....

Just read over the Kroot Warsphere from Nate's document. Interesting....

Also why are Tau transports better than IN ones? I mean I guess it's not much of a difference, but still.

[Plaxor]

Warsphere thoughts:

Worse than Roks? Well they don't have the range of roks, and cost 2x as much, given they have 2x the weapons batteries and shields and hits... but still?

Honestly I would keep the vessel at Nates' document but just give them the +15cm range weapons for free. Roks have a hard time using them, Although I do wonder how a warsphere fleet would play? Honestly the best bet would be to actually build a Kroot fleet with various sized spheres and speeds.

[lastspartacus]

So what was the final ruling for fighter bombers?  What was the one we like better?


That reminds me of the Tau, of course.  Something that has been bothering me about Mantas.
If they could lose their resilient status, that would go a long way to making the Korvattra just about perfect as a fleet, along with -2 ions on the Hero and buffs to the Merchant.
Then there is no need to limit or increase cost of the Explorer.

My reasoning is thus:  The supposed reason for the manta being Resilient is its size and sophistication.  I see this as flawed reasoning.
A Fury interceptor is around 70 meters long, and the Starhawk bomber is larger still, small ships in their own right.
Then, one marker represents not just one, but a squadron of these vessels, 3-5 seeming to be the average, depending on class.  These ships are as large as the Manta.

My point is, the Manta should be considered to be flying in squadrons as the other ships just to be counted as a full marker, much less resilient.
But lets say a lot more resources go into the Manta, much more than the usual bomber.  Then we could say that it by itself has the power of a squadron.  Thats a stretch, but it certainly is more of a stretch to suggest that one Manta is more resilient than a squadron of its counterparts.

[horizon]

If the Manta would not be resilient then the Thunderhawk wouldn't be resilient as well.

[lastspartacus]

That never made sense either.  'Oh, the thunderhawk is bigger so its only half the launch bays.' A thunderhawk is smaller than a Fury interceptor.
Also, a Manta is larger than a thunderhawk, and manages to have normal bay capacity.  There should be no half bay restriction for T-Hawks.

Either way though, Thunderhawks can maintain their resiliency on account of their skilled crew, for the same reason Eldar pilots are resilient.

[horizon]

There is no half bay T-Hawk issue. Why do you think so? A Marine bay is build to accomadate T-hawks.


Vbb's may take T-hawks instead of their regular ships. Bay accomodated.


Balance wise a t-hawks counts for 2 regular markers in ac vs ac. No wrong with that.

[lastspartacus]

Well I'll certainly never agree a slow assault boat is worth 2 markers, but thats besides the point.

My point is that if Mantas were not resilient, it would go a long way right there in fixing the Korvattra.
It would also make fluff sense.  That was really all I was saying, for consideration.