September 12, 2024, 12:16:40 AM

Author Topic: DE/Eldar/Tau Flawed Ships  (Read 27213 times)

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2010, 03:48:51 AM »
Well, no. With the previous ship class (merchant) they only recently discovered a way to have HP6 hits. And than a jump to 8 with no indication they got better, again? Nope, not in my book.

What I was saying is actually that the fluff for the weaker version would be referring to 6 hits, and the new discovery was to make it eight hits

Offline commander

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2010, 08:17:28 AM »
Well, no. With the previous ship class (merchant) they only recently discovered a way to have HP6 hits. And than a jump to 8 with no indication they got better, again? Nope, not in my book.

What I was saying is actually that the fluff for the weaker version would be referring to 6 hits, and the new discovery was to make it eight hits

Allright, can live with that but only with my proposed stats. Its own written fluff says weaker than Lunar.
So; the Hero:
- HP8
- S6 missiles on front
- S1 R30 lances per side (L,F and R,F)
- S2 R45 WB per side (L,F and R,F)
NO LB

Still good firepower in front (FP4 R45 WB, S2 R30 lances and S6 torps), crap on the broadside. Just like fluff says. Anything more and it is equals to and/or is even better than Lunar. NO WAY.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 08:31:42 AM by commander »

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2010, 08:25:13 AM »
I'm guessing we aren't talking about the merchant.

Offline commander

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 08:30:49 AM »
I'm guessing we aren't talking about the merchant.

No, Hero; forgot to put the ships class. Will edit.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2010, 11:30:11 AM »
So drop 2 lances off the ship AND the LB?  Too harsh.

Besides, it fits the Korvattra paradigm of 'to win, throw AC at it'
The Hero is a warship, but it just can't help but feel naked without AC.
Its why I dislike the LB on the Protector, seems the fleet would be advanced enough to leave the nest and try it without a launch bay.

Offline horizon

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2010, 11:46:24 AM »
Protector model has a launch bay.

Offline commander

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2010, 01:33:10 PM »
There are TWO hardpoints per side AND TWO on the prow. Too much; that nearing battlecruiser level. Why does everybody want to 'overload' on a cruiser chassis? AND fluff states very clear they did fail to equal the Lunar. So WHY want you all that it's better than a lunar???? You lost me there.

Offline horizon

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2010, 01:58:32 PM »
Fluff indeed says the Hero did not manage to achieve Lunar level.

In the base concept regarding hits we take a look at the model.

so Hero & Lunar both cruiser, 45cm turns, 2 shields, speed 20cm, 8 hits. Hero has +1 turret. Hero has boarding halved.

Lunar:
12 batteries @30cm
4 lances  @ 30cm
6 torpedoes.

Hero as is:
4 batteries @ 45cm (LFR)
4 lances @ 30cm (2/2 LF /RF)
2 launch bays
6 missiles

@ 30cm The Lunar total WB eqv = 24.
As maximum focus it can do 12.

@ 30cm The Hero total WB eqv = 16.
As maximum focus it can do 16.
Furtermore 4 has a reach of 45cm, albeit in a 1:1 duel the result would be dropped shield at most.
The hero could do a left/right of 2wb + 2l = 8 eqv.

Thus in the thick of fighting, enemies on both sides the Lunar has better firepower.

Now, both have 6 torps/missiles. The missiles edging out the torps.

Now, the asset to the Lunar are the 2 launch bays. This and the maximum focus vs a Lunar makes that the Hero is a better ship.

Now if we bring down lances to 2 the Hero would have:
@ 30cm The Hero total WB eqv = 10.
As maximum focus it can do 10.
Furtermore 4 has a reach of 45cm, albeit in a 1:1 duel the result would be dropped shield at most.
The hero could do a left/right of 2wb + 1l = 5 eqv.

So in firepower it drops below the Lunar. And now it is dependant on its launch bays, where as former these where just an extra bonus.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2010, 07:40:04 PM »
Indeed, losing a lance on each side is the perfect fix.

Offline commander

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2010, 08:34:28 PM »
Allright, I will playtest this a couple of times.

Offline commander

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2010, 09:40:26 PM »
One quick one on one game.
The hero with your layout can still focus the equal of FP7 R30 WB to one side and add a S2 LB to it, thats in total FP13 to me.

Stronger than a Lunar. So no go for me.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2010, 09:49:38 PM »
2LBs are less then half as powerful as S4 bays.

2AC vs T2:
2 Survive: 2*0.25*1.67 = 0.835
1 Survives: 1*0.5*1.67 =0.835
0 Survives: 0*0.25*1.67=0

Total: 1.667 attacks

4AC vs T2:
4 Survive: 4*0.25*1.67 = 1.67
3 Survive: 3*0.5*1.67 = 2.5
2 Survive: 2*0.25*1.67 = 0.835

Total: 5 Attacks
1/2 of 4AC do: 2.5 Attacks.

This is 50% Better than 2AC by themselves. So if S4 Bays are worth 12WBe, and 1/2 of S4 Bays are worth 6WBe, S2 Bays are worth 4WBe.

That gives a total focussed firepower of 11WBe for the Hero, NOT 13.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 09:51:25 PM by RCgothic »

Offline commander

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2010, 09:53:45 PM »
S2 LB = FP6 which is half of S4 LB; So 13.

Offline commander

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2010, 10:13:53 PM »
My conclusion sofar (after one 1:1 game):
Hero, possible configuration:
- HP8
- FP4 R45 WB L/F/R
- S1 lance R30 L/F and R/F
- S6 torps F
Nothing more. Adding to this will make it equal or better than Lunar, something I'll never accept (fluffwise).

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Other Fleets... Flawed Ships
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2010, 11:21:32 PM »
S2 LB = FP6 which is half of S4 LB; So 13.

Did you not actually read my post? Yes, on a Dictator or Mars or other ship with 4LBs, 2LBs are worth FP6. But on a 2LB ship such as the Hero or Defiant, they are only worth 4. This is because turrets destroy a greater proportion of them. The Hero can thus concentrate FP11 to the side.