DE/Eldar/Tau Flawed Ships

[lastspartacus]

Well, at least the Lunar gets to be abeam when its firing, and at 45 turns the Hero should struggle even more than the Protector after the pass.

Does losing 2 lances still make it more powerful than the Lunar?

By design I think the Hero should be challenging but not equal to the Lunar, at the same points.

[Trasvi]

Abeam/ 5+ armor is on average the same as Closing/6+ armor. However you are right in that there is greater potential for more damage when closing.
In my experience,  a single Hero struggles a lot after the pass against chaos/imperial, just because it can't ever really bring its weapons to bear again.
To be useful again, the hero needs to use either CTNH or RO orders, and the imperials can be trying very hard to make them brace; Imperials can also be using LO orders, whereas Tau never really get that chance.

[commander]

A hero as is, has no more problems than a Lunar. More firepower (incl LB's) and same firing arcs.
Modified hero: well, abeam FP11 or 13 - depends how one will count - is as much (FP11 and FP12 have same results on gunnery table) / more as lunar.
Fluff says otherwise, so tone it down.

[horizon]

I counted 50/50 like the Lunar must. Only fp.

[lastspartacus]

Its tough, much more focusable firepower, but struggles in its own unique ways.  str4 torps as well?

[Plaxor]

So for the merchant; Cost 115 for 6 hit version not 120? and an upgrade for 15 points to go up to 7 hits? Anyone like those ideas?

[Sigoroth]

Upgrade to 8 hits for 20 points methinks.

[Plaxor]

Any more thoughts on this section?

[Plaxor]

Shadowhunter, DE variant lances are worth 5/3 lances. Eldar weapons batteries are worth about 1.41 weapons batteries. Which means that 3wbs=4.23 regular wbs. And from math earlier, 1 lance equals 3.5wbs. So therefore the DE lance=5.83wbs. So you would have to up the weapons batteries on the ship to 4, so that they would equal 5.64 regular wbs, much closer to what is reasonable.

Rather than a 17% discrepancy between the two variants, we would have a 3.3% difference.

So Phantom Lance=DE phantom Lance, and fp4. 45 points, old special rule, +5cm bands.


Any thoughts on ghostships?

[horizon]

Ghostship per MMS.

[Plaxor]

Interesting. I agree.

[Sigoroth]

Did you not actually read my post? Yes, on a Dictator or Mars or other ship with 4LBs, 2LBs are worth FP6. But on a 2LB ship such as the Hero or Defiant, they are only worth 4. This is because turrets destroy a greater proportion of them. The Hero can thus concentrate FP11 to the side.

Well, yes  and no. Typically against escorts a 4 LB ship would break its ordnance down into at least 2 waves, so these LBs are worth the same amount as on a larger carrier when attacking escorts. Also, they can be combined to make a normal strength 4 wave. It is a little more effort though.

[Plaxor]

Well, yes  and no. Typically against escorts a 4 LB ship would break its ordnance down into at least 2 waves, so these LBs are worth the same amount as on a larger carrier when attacking escorts. Also, they can be combined to make a normal strength 4 wave. It is a little more effort though.

He's right. Also 2lb make way better defensive weapons than offensive. I would use my light carriers to launch fighters, which don't really have any point of being in a wave. Sure bombers suck in a 2 squadron wave, but the ship is more useful in killing escorts if need be.

[Plaxor]

Final thoughts in this section.

DE: Should they have free mimic engines? The faq spoke it nicely at 5/20, but the Mimic engines aren't that big of a deal unless you're going against a NC fleet.

Also the Cruiser should be able to buy 2 impalers for 20 points, not  up to 2 for 20 each.

Eldar: I think I'm just going to go with everything Horizon said, as he knows Eldar way way better than I do. Although changing the FoA to Void Dragon? That seems a bit weird, although I do think that the Ork ships don't have as much character as say The Planet Killer or SO. I think that it warrants them to be a character if they have something unique, or that there already is a class of them. (such as with the SO and terminus est) making them actually unique.

In the case of Orks, most players just use the stats for each of the BBs but just assume that their fleet has another similar vessel, much like how KK's are Orks only have a few good design ideas that are fairly similar.

Tau:
How does 4wbs@45cm=1lance@30? I think that if the lance goes down to thirty, then the Wbs should be at 3@45cm. Then the Hero shouldn't be restricted and will be less competitive overall with a lunar.

Merchant, So I proposed that we should keep it at 6hits for 115, but have an upgrade going to 8 hits for an extra 25? points. Just work with the fluff of there being a weaker and a stronger hit version.

Nids: Apparently No comment?

Necrons: I know that the CL has problems in that no one takes it due to the fear of it getting blown up. Any thoughts on increasing it to 6 hits for +10? points? Making it a more viable option?

Also the Escorts, people don't take these too often, but I don't know what to really do with them. Maybe a small increase in firepower? A better save?

[horizon]

I have not looked into any other race beside Eldar/Tau.

So, make no calls on those. Perhaps rename this thread to Eldar/Tau? Open a new one for Nids/Necrons?

I agree on the Merchant (Plaxor's), 2 extra hits shouldn't be more then +15/max 20 to me.

I plead for Void Dragon to make the vessel a Grand Cruiser option in the cwe fleet. May take one per High Admiral/Admiral, thus not Hero specific. Makes sense to me to bolster fleet.