2011 Book of the Void

[Zelnik]

Holy crap!! the HA spoke!!

me and Cyberdragon have been working with the PDF, here is the new link


http://www.cdt.qc.ca/bfg/Diasporex_V2.pdf

[Zelnik]

also, realize that this PDF is a hash at the moment, the old upgrade list is still there, which will be removed, and the torpedo rules need to be added as well.

What is more important is the story right now. I want ideas, input, stuff like that.

[Eudaimon]

wait a minute: the normal table of upgrades and the little list of upgrades of each ship are cumulative?

EDIT: sorry for the idiomatic error because I'm not anglophone, but a personal message would have worked the same, am I correct?

[Sigoroth]

wait a minute: the normal table of upgrades and the little list of upgrades of each ship are cumulable cumulative?

[Eudaimon]

also, what about introducing the Earthseed itself, starting from a hulk for the base? Maybe with the condition of using this huge ship only in very big battles. I always felt the loss of the Earthseed from the 1st release of the Diasporex

[Zelnik]

The old table is going to be removed, the new table is what will stand.


The earthseed is a little like a Craftworld. Some things are just too big to have in game. What I can do instead of giving it a stat list is make a special scenareo similar to exterminatus or planetary assault. 

The issue with doing this is... The defense fleet currently surrounding the Earthseed is so large, that it would require an entire crusade to be launched against it in full force to threaten it.  We are talking Mecharian Crusade in scale here.

[Eudaimon]

ok for the Earthseed motivation. I was thinking too about a special scenario concerning exterminatus or similar.

My problem is with the upgrades, I mean: the new table is only the one that is attached to the profile of each single ship?

[Zelnik]

yes, instead of giving a large umbrella list, I felt it would be much easier to balance by giving ships specific upgrades then providing a huge list.

Also, it makes each ship more unique and provides them a far more specific purpose once upgraded.

[Zelnik]

Here are the things that I want to work on.

1. Story, story story! How can we make them more interesting without harming the plot?

2. Points adjustments. Probably a distant second, they are pretty well balanced now.

3. Earthseed mission. I am always willing to listen to potential missions involving the earthseed.

[Eudaimon]

we absolutely NEED to keep the huge list mechanic. Without the big list, ther is no Diasporex fleet, they are only another faction.

Their first feature is characterization, which other reason would attract players to them?

Small tailored tables are too restrictive, players can't show any originality or any idea that designers haven't previously expected (pretending that 16 upgrades can't be handled all togheter). At least it's a limit too heavy.

Things should work differently: designers have to fix performances of ships and sinergies; limiting the upgrades for the Diasporex to achieve this object is the easier path.

I say: Diasporex destiny is braided to the huge upgrade table: the better it work, the better Diasporex will be known. Little tables will make them lose their flavour.

SO

here is what I want to propose about which work has to be done about the upgrade list:
-1) first drawing up of the table, trying to vary as much as possible the effects of the upgrades
-2) research of the more game breaking combinations
now we have to imagine how to avoid them, I thought about four way of action, propose your own:
-increase the point cost of one of the indicted upgrades
-ban expressly the guilty combination (instead of all the table)
-introduce a side score, assign to each upgrade a value and tell that a certain amount can't be passed
-divide the upgrades into two classes, then we can pick maximum one upgrade of the first class (more powerful) and maximum one or two (depending from the ship) of the second class (less powerful ones)


My aim is to point out that small upgrades tables are good from the point of view of the designer, but not from the point of view of the players


I don't ask for more ships
I don't want ships more powerful
I don't need uber-upgrades
I want freedom in choice!


Sigoroth, I rely on you to point out every single grammar or idiomatic error and make a thread for it

[Zelnik]

Unlike Sigoroth, I am not much of a grammar snob

I am not unreasonable, and I really do understand your desires. Let's talk about it then.


Currently I am weighing the intense freedom of a large list like in the original warp rift document, which was extremely easy to abuse, or ship specific upgrades that can only be abused to a point.

I agree that we can go over the rules with a fine tooth comb and locate overpowered rules and isolate them, but in doing so, we are limiting the freedom you so desire.

Horizon, Cyberdragon and others have expressed support for the new layout, mostly because it is a far more streamlined way of doing things and prevents individual ships from becoming overbalanced in regards to points.

The way I desired the setup was: if you wanted a large number of ships, take them vanilla and compensate for their lack of firepower with numbers. If you wanted more powerful ships, pay for it and have a Heavy Cruiser fleet (much like the Admech fleet is a battlecruiser fleet).  The difference between this and the Admech fleet is still the same: Choice.  

Another problem with both of the old upgrade list is simply that some upgrades inevitably are taken in preference to others.  Every time I used to make a list I found myself taking the same two or three upgrades over and over again, leaving the rest by the wayside to be ignored.  I wanted each ship to stand on its own and serve a unique roll in the fleet instead of a platform for the same upgrades over and over again.

Now, the callisto can function much like a "light" cruiser with its enhanced maneuverability, the Ganymede can survive the inevitable flurry of damage it will experience, and the Europa is given the flexibility to be a combat cruiser as well as a carrier.

Titans are now hard to kill (as they should be), Io's are terrors in space, the neptune can handle a fleets launch capacity by itself and both battleships can stand on their own merits.

[RCgothic]

I prefer the individual upgrades for each ship rather than the big list. I also have some comments on the upgrade rules which i'll post presently.

[RCgothic]

Gah! swallowed by the webs. Will repost later.

[Zelnik]

Repost damn you! I want to see!!

[RCgothic]

Here is the list of proposed upgrades

Callisto: These upgrades to the callisto work to make it a more versitile fighting platform (over what it already is!) while also attempting to increase its maneuverability on the whole.  This endeavor was made to combat the increasing numbers of light cruisers the fleet has been encountering, and find a way to "fill the hole" left in their fleet. 

Rapid Turret Hydrolics: You may fire the dorsal lance a second time in a different arc. 10pts
If it's just rapid aiming, why can't it fire twice at a single target, or at two targets in the same arc? Multi-strength dorsals can already split fire at as many targets in as many arcs as they wish, so I don't think this rule works either way.


Emergency Maneuvering thrusters: When fired upon, before dice are rolled and gunnary is resolved, the callisto may make a LD check. If passed, it may make a sudden 45 degree turn in either direction.  The vessel may not go on special orders next round (but may still brace for impact). 10 pts.
In the interests of minimising leadership checks, maybe make this 'when the Callisto goes on BFI, it may immediately make a 45' turn. This turn is executed before finding how many dice to roll on the gunnery table and before any to hti rolls are made.

Vectored Engine Coils: When on Come to New Heading, the vessel make make a free 45 degree turn BEFORE moving (effectively giving it a maximum of 3 turns). 10 pts.


Ganymede: The upgrades to this vessel seek to make it more resilient and have greater longevity in battle. Due to the incredible firepower of this vessel, it is frequently viewed as a "first target of enemy ships.  Diasporex engineers have been working tirelessly to allow the vessel to survive the 'wave of fire' that comes at them as a result.

Automated Repair Systems: My repair port, starboard, dorsal, and prow damage on a 5+ instead of a 6. 10 pts.

Power Reserves: CTNH, BR, AAF only reduce the strength of the ships weapons by 25%. 10 pts. 3/4 is harder to calculate than 1/2 or 1/4. Just an FYI.


Armored Engine Core: Upon a Thrusters or Engine room damage critical, roll a d6. On a 4+, the damage is ignored (though the effect still remains) 10 pts.

Seems very situational for 10pts.


Europa: This vessel has seen the most combat, and as such, has the most radical upgrade options due to "on the spot" weapon load outs after severe damage to the vessel. Typically they result in making it a more potent combat vessel, while still being able to provide strike craft support to the fleet.

Deck Gun: This vessel can sacrifice 2 launch capacity (one from each side) for an additional dorsal lance that fires at 30cm FLR.:Free

Emission Shields: Vessel ignores blast markers for boarding, movement and leadership: 15 pts

reinforced Superstructure: Vessel only counts as crippled when reduced to 2 hits. 15 pts

Io: the Upgrades to the Io  are focused on making the vessel the ultimate arbiter of space combat. Increasing toughness, firepower, and boarding defense, it makes the vessel a terrifying prospect to combat.

Automated Torpedo Loaders: This vessel may select two torpedo ammunition types, including normal torpedo's (that never run out of ammunition). With every Reload Ordnance phase, it may switch between ammunition types. This vessel can run out of ammunition on a roll of doubles for the Reload Ordnance rule. If one type of ammunition runs out of ammo, the other may still be reloaded and fired as normal until it too runs out of ammunition.  If both run out of ammunition, torpedos may not be fired.  25 pts

I think this rule could be written more clearly, as I don't fully understand it. Let me know if this comes close: This vessel may select two torpedo ammunition types, including normal torpedoes or any special torpedo type. Either type of torpedoes may be loaded into the tubes on a Reload Ordnance order. To unload readied torpedos and load the other type requires a Reload Ordnance order. Normal torpedoes follow all the usual rules, however special torpedos will run out if a double is rolled whilst reloading them. If one type of ammunition runs out of ammo, the other may still be reloaded and fired as normal until it too runs out of ammunition.  If both run out of ammunition, torpedos may not be fired.

Heavy Armored Prow: Increase prow armor to 6+

AI Controlled Defense Systems: +1 in defensive boarding actions.

Jupiter: The jupiter has a long history in the fleet and has a well known and successful combat record.  It has been modified over the years extensively into a fierce fighting and command vessel, and the sight of one is inspirational for the rest of the fleet.

Automated Torpedo Loaders: see Io, 35 pts

Deck Guns: Increases the strength of the dorsal MAC Cannons to 12, 20 pts

Long Service Record: This vessel is well known in the fleet and has a long service record. The entire fleet benefits from a +1 to LD to a max of 9.  If destroyed, the entire fleet suffers -1 ld. the Fleet Master MUST be on this vessel.



Titan: Most upgrades to the titan fit into it's simple operational mission specs: Defend other ships, be difficult to kill. Simple does not mean ineffective, as the upgrades rendered to the vessel make it immensely difficult to kill.

Engine Overhaul: Increase speed to 20cm.  +5 pts

Ablative Broadside Plating: Increase Port and starboard armor to 6+ 15 pts

Additional Shield Core: +1 to shields 10 pts



Neptune: Making up for it's design flaws by increasing the vessels capacity to survive and contribute to combat, the upgrades change it's operational capacity to that of a Heavy Support Carrier, increasing it's capacity to engage enemies at range. 

Auto Scram Launchers: lay launch twice the normal launch capacity in one round, but must reload ordnance twice before it may launch again: 20 pts.

Is this really worth 20pts considering it doesn't output more ordnance on average? How does this interact with the fleet control limit?

Deck Gun: increases it's dorsal lance armament to 3: 10 pts

Advanced Turret Systems: may re-roll turrets: 10 pts


Saturn: The Saturn carriers are always filled with the best and the brightest, but the opportunity to serve on the largest carrier vessel in the fleet pushes these exemplary individuals above and beyond the call of duty.  While some changes can be made to the dorsal armament, the real power lay in the crew manning this experimental vessel.

Ace Pilots: All fighters, bombers and assault boats count as resillient, 50 pts
Not really worth 50pts?

Emergency repair teams: Once per game, you may repair critical damage on a 4+.  20 pts.
Bit situational to be worth 20pts?

Deck Guns: Increase dorsal lance strength up to 4, 10 points per strength. 


Bulwark Cruiser:
The Alien design and larger hull allows for great versitility in its' design, and even exceeding the Terran cruisers in some areas, including engines and armament.  If overhauled completely, it becomes an incredibly powerful assault cruiser. 

EM Disruptors: Each lance may be replaced with an EM disruptor for 5 points each.

Alien Engine Coil: increase speed by 5 cm, +1 to aaf special orders 20 pts

Rotating focusing crystals: Prow weapons now may fire FLR. 20 pts.

Terran Escorts: Upgrades made by these vessels usually are made because the over-excited engineers of the vessel want to see how far they can "trick out" their ships or engine coils, usually resulting in some pretty remarkable results.

Huge Engines: Takes one less weapon system, but doubles the vessels speed. Free

Huge Gun: Diverting power from the engines and thrusters, the vessel can arm itself with weapons far larger then are normal spec.  Increases the range of it's firepower to 45, but reduces speed to 10 cm and turns to 45. 5 points per ship.

Speed 10 turns 45 is pretty slow for a miniscule increase in range, surely?

Racing Stripes: Many of the smaller vessels were designed for raw speed, raced against other custom vessels in dangerous and exciting displays of engineering sport.  This vessel may go AAF for free: 5 points per ship, MUST BE PAINTED AS SUCH!

Alien Escorts: Alien escorts tend to be much older, and upgraded for performance and combat prowess instead of testing the very limits of their ships power systems. This does not mean they are not effective. The unique power systems present allow them to even take the devistating Ceti EM Disruptor.

EM Disruptors: may replace lances with em disruptors for 5 pts each

Flachette Cannons: each ship may reduce its battery strength by 1 to increase turret value by 1 for free.

Defensive Design: hit and run attacks are at a -1.  5 pts per ship.