Orks... Flawed Ships

[Plaxor]

So I know Orks are going to be a lot of work for our revision so I've started this topic to keep this separate from our IN/Chaos thread. Anyways I'm harvesting info from the Orks Gib us a Brick thread and the Ork kill-kroozer poll.

Now I don't want to do any major revisions to the ork special rules or anything of that sort... The reasons already put forth (as they are more likely to succeed at ramming already, column shifts are pointless etc.)
Note; we will be using info from the current updated FAQ, I.E. Onslaughts costing 35, Savages @30 turret upgrades etc.

My fleet revision standings are in the next post. You're welcome to provide ideas for this, comment etc, but I guess that the orks are getting done differently than IN/Chaos/SMs at least.

Other ideas I haven't put on paper:
Ork LC type.

Ones still pretty loose in the next list:
Lances on slamblasta
Teleport attacks from mega-armored bp
the savage gunship (everything)
How the soopa engines upgrade works on ramships
Sort-of firepower on KK

Other thought: I'm considering dropping the heavy guns on the prows of both the KK and TS to 4, if the KK gets within 15 it does absurd damage, and this seems better than less Guns firepower as orks desperately need the ranged firepower. This would mimic larger ships, which have the same number of heavy guns in every arc.

[Plaxor]

Gorbags Revenge: Prow torpedoes increased to D6+4, Cost 305

Kroolboy: +2wbs to p/s guns. 255 cost

Deathdeala: No change

Slamblasta: Lances changed to str d3+2, Cost 285

Hammer: No stats change, just upgrades added (as listed)

May reduce the strength of P/S Guns to 2, and add soopa engines for no cost
May replace p/s heavy guns for 1 launch bay (total 2) for +10 points

Kill-Kroozer: Prow guns increased to D6+6, P/S guns increased to D6+2. Torps made into a 10 point upgrade. Cost reduced to 150, Turrets upgraded to 2

Upgrades:
May reduce P/S guns to str 2 and add soopa engines at no cost
May replace P/S heavy guns with D6 torpedoes for free.
Of course may replace prow heavy guns for d6+2 torpedoes for 10 points


Terror ship: Prow weapons at D6+4, sides at D6+1. turrets upgraded to 2, Base cost 175

Upgrades:
May reduce P/S guns to strength 2 and add soopa engines at no cost.
May upgrade prow heavy guns to Str D6+2 torpedoes for 10 points.


Onslaught: 30 points firepower D6+1

Upgrades:
may exchange 1 firepower for soopa engines at no cost
may upgrade turrets to two for 5 points

Savage: 30 points, has soopa engines

May upgrade its turrets to two for +5 points

Ravager: No Change

May swap 1 gun for soopa engines at no cost
May upgrade its turrets to three for 5 points

Comments: the gun swap may go up to two, but the ship overall is correctly costed and well represented among bfg players. It is a good ship


Brute Ramship: No change

May exchange 1 firepower for soopa engines at no cost (or possibly no exchange and just +5 points)
May upgrade its turrets to two for 5 points

Comments: this one is hard, and deserves more thought. I imagine anyone would give soopa engines to a ship designed to ram always, and I can’t see eliminating all its firepower for that.purpose.

Escorts: of course all the escorts in a squadron must have the same upgrades. All soopa engines or none, all turrets or none etc.

Hulk/Roks: No change.

Torpedo Bombers: use old cost upgrades (based on averages rather than max)


Warlord upgrades:

Maniak gunners: 10 points, may re-roll lance strength as well (in the case of the Slamblasta)

Looted Torpedoes: 10 points

Mad Meks: 10 points

Extra power fields: 20 points


Fleet lists:
2 new characters added:
Big Mek: Makes the ship replace one shield with D3, comes with a re-roll 40 points
Freeboota Kapitan: Adds +1 ld to the ship, comes with a re-roll 40points
Both characters are in the warboss category, so you may not include more than 1 character per 500 points. Each may take 'warboss upgrades' which with the big mek will make the shields go to d3+1, or d3+2 on bb/bc.

Characters must be on a capital ship. (Revision of rules neglect from GW).

Pirates: Now includes Kroolboy, and Roks, may include all three character options but must include 1 freeboota kapitan if over 750 points as it's leader. Other two are 0-1 each.

WAAGH: May include all three characters, however it must include a warboss at 750 points or greater. Both other characters are 0-1

[RCgothic]

I'd suggest Turret Strength D3 for cruisers and 2D3/D6 for battleships. 1 Turret isn't enough for AV4+ ships.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

As another option to the weapons, just add more non-variable stat. In 40k, Orks don't have variable attacks. They just have a lot of attacks. Just that their ballistic skill sucks.

My idea before was they have lotsa dakka but would be rolling at +1 to the lowest Armor value up to a max of 6.

There should also be more turrets but they normally hit at 5 instead of 4.

[Plaxor]

So I'm rather surprised with the quick replies to my other thread and the Ork Kill-Krooza thread that this one isn't going yet. Hmmm...

[RCgothic]

To be completely honest, I don't often get to play against orks, so I'm not over-brimming with ideas how to fix them. I think BBs up to 14 hits would be an idea, there's not enough separation between them and cruisers.

I think the ships generally need to be upgunned as well. Forget to hit modifiers, column shifts or armour changes. They just need more guns.

[Plaxor]

So I've been looking over the smotherman formula and thought that since heavy guns aren't put at a correct gameplay value I've been toying around with them being 1.5 points rather than 3.

If this is the case then a KK would cost: 134 points in its current state, 21 points less than what it costs. Now for that we can add 4wbs to the prow at 45cm for 12 points, and 1 to each side at 3 points, leaving us with 6 points left over. Now the question is do we reduce the cost of the ship by 5 points? Maybe. or increase the side guns by 1 again? likely. Now naturally in this format torpedoes would be a 10 point upgrade. (actually likely 10 points to swap heavy guns, free to swap regular guns). Of course there would be an additional upgrade to swap side heavy guns, or (guns?) with soopa engines. Likely at 5/0 points respectively. Probably an option to swap side guns/heavy guns with d6 torpedos as well.


of course using this logic and upping the stats similarly on the TS (+4wbs prow, +1 to each side) would make it cost 191 points and without free torpedoes. Six point discount here. Now we could make it only D6+4 on the front, and make the sides d6+1 instead of the KKs proposed D6+2. This would separate out the two vessels as their class types, and make the TS not feel like so much of a +30 point heavy gun swap for lbs.


This logic would place the savages at 31 points (about what they are now). The onslaughts current stats: 28.5 points, which plays into my previous escort math (see orks gib us a brick). This ship should have D6+1 or D6+2 firepower ultimately whatever is chosen for the sides of KKs. Or perhaps an additional points reduction of 5 points.

[Plaxor]

More analysis; Gorbags revenge priced correctly (no surprise) at 310 to 307 (modified smotherman) Likely give an additional 2 torps to d6+4.

Kroolboy overcosted by 17 points (although this doesn't account for soopa engines, so maybe only 7 points?) Probably add 2 wbs to each side to resemble deathdeala, then drop by 10 points.

Deathdeala untercosted by 2.5 points (again doesn't account for soopa engines, so maybe this is a bonus? Maybe increase side wbs on kb to resemble deathdeala)

Slamblasta overcosted by 25 points (not too surprising, but lances are a premium...) Maybe increase lances to str4. Maybe reduce to range 30 (i've always wondered why orks figured out how to make a gothic's lances longer ranged.)

Hammer: undercosted by 10 points? (seems fine)

[Plaxor]

Ok so what our list is looking like so far: (well mine…)

Kill Kroozer                                 155pts
Type/Hits   Speed   Turns   Shields   Armor       Turrets
Cruiser/10   20cm      45’     1        6+/5+/4+       1
 
Armament              Range/Speed   Firepower/Str   Fire Arc
Prow Gunz                    45cm            D6+6                F
Prow Heavy Gunz           15cm               6                  F
Port Gunz                     30cm            D6+2                L
Port Heavy Gunz            15cm               4                  L
Starboard Gunz             30cm            D6+2                R
Starboard Heavy Gunz    15cm               4                  R

Refits: Ork Kroozas represent some of the most varied types of vessels in the galaxy. The imperium has classified two general ideologies in ship building; one with more guns (or dakka) and one with ordinance. To represent this, a ship may replace the following weapons for these refits.

The Kill-Kroozer may replace its prow heavy guns for a torpedo salvo of str D6+2 for +10 points. It may also replace its port/starboard heavy guns for strength d6 torpedoes for +10 points. Additionally it may replace either its port/starboard heavy guns, or its port/starboard guns with soopa engines for no cost.

The ship additionally may upgrade its turrets to D3 for 10 points. If it takes torpedos then it may be upgraded with boarding torpedoes for 5 points.

Possible other options, replacing prow guns instead of heavy guns with torpedoes, but likely this would be of greater strength, or reduce the cost of the vessel by 5 points. Similarly the same upgrade style for the port/starboard guns for free. Making extra power fields not warlord linked, and have a more reasonable cost (15 or 20 points)

Analysis: For some reason this set up seems more deathy, when all that was added was 8wbs. However we do know the ship is underpowered at its current stats, and with it upgrades and torps being an upgrade, this could prove differently. Ork ships prove to be solo hunters, and don’t coordinate well, so this doesn’t seem so bad. Will need to playtest, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this was slightly OP. Also this allows for a multitude of different ship builds and unique playstyles that the orks are really demanding. With these you can make at least 4 different kinds of vessel, a lot more comparable to IN and chaos fleet list options.

Terror Ship
Type/Hits   Speed   Turns   Shields   Armor        Turrets
Cruiser/10   20cm      45’      1         6+/5+/4+   1
 
Armament               Range/Speed   Firepower/Str   Fire Arc
Prow Gunz                    45cm            D6+4               F
Prow Heavy Gunz           15cm               6                 F
Port Gunz                     30cm            D6+1               L
Port Launch Bays              -                  2                 L
Starboard Gunz              30cm           D6+1               R
Starboard Launch Bays      -                2                   R

The Terror ship may replace its prow heavy guns with d6+2 torpedoes at 10 points. Additionally it may replace its port/starboard guns with soopa engines for no cost. It may also upgrade its turrets to d3 for 10 points.

Again same possibilities as KK, with replacing guns for torps, but that would make a somewhat ridiculous ship…. But it certainly is an orky thing

Analysis: this set of stats seems about right, because for the cost of making torps an upgrade we added 4fp, and the ship was already determined as ‘about right’ anyways, but needed more firepower. It’s hard to justify this without making torpedos and upgrade, and allows for the cheaper version of the ship to have the disadvantage of heavy guns. Making torps not an obvious ‘must take’, which is what I want to go for with every upgrade. Making the player have to make a choice is what really shows balance.

Hammer class Battlekrooza

There are no stat changes here, but I’ve included a few upgrades:

May replace either p/s heavy guns, or p/s guns with soopa engines for no cost.

Possibly replace p/s heavy guns with d6+2 torps. Making a unique BC.


Thoughts?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I think the current Terror ship is fine. Don't touch it anymore. It's the Kill Krooza which needs beefing up. I like the setup but not sure if players will agree to 155 for it.

[Plaxor]

I think the Terror ship is fine. It's the Kill Krooza which needs beefing up.

Yeah.. the terror ship is fine. Although both ships could use some beefing up in firepower. So the way that I justified this was to make the unused version of the ship (without torps) have slightly more firepower, but making the torps then an upgrade to compensate. The ships really need some good reason not to take torps, and cheaper is usually a good reason. And this stuff is just sugestion anyways.

The terror ship came out to 174 points with modified smotherman with heavy guns, and 185 with torps. So it seemed to either mean that I could increase its firepower and increase the cost of the torp version, or decrease the cost of the heavy gun version (and that would make the ship absurdly broken). +4 firepower isn't much change, and at basically a 10 points up in cost (as still I imagine everyone would buy torps).

Don't worry... that is the max that I'm willing to change on the terror ship. Save for potentially the torp upgrade, but that seems ridiculous, and I'll save that for the suicidal kill-kroozers.

The Kill-Kroozer set up seems powerful for 155, but again that doesn't use torps, and basically it will only be using its prow arc. It really needs playtesting for it to work, and these stats were purely mathhammered. (as to go from 131 to ~155 meant +8fp, kind of a lot.)

How do you feel about the upgrades on the kill-kroozer?

[Plaxor]

Which comes to mind as far as the kill kroozers potential mod: Missile.

Kill-Kroozer:   175pts
Prow Torps +10points
P/S Torps +10 Points
Soopa Engines

This ship would probably spend the game all ahead fulling until it got into the middle of the enemy ships, then it would launch torps in every direction. (hopefully supported by fighta-bombers).

Its an interesting 'new' cruiser identity. Any other thoughts?

The kill-kroozer kind of ended up in stats similar to a hammer. According to fluff hammers are based off imperial cruisers often with nova cannons. Kill-kroozers and terror ships are often made from imperial hulks. Hammers have just overgrown themselves a bit. Incorporating for 90 more points; better armor, more shields, an extra turret, torps/bombardment cannon, and a dorsal launch bay.

The armor is worth 22.5 points on a KK, the shield 10, the turret 5, bombardment cannon (in replacement of heavy guns) 18points, and the launch bay 34 (d6 launch bays in smotherman/2 +1 launch bay) Oh and +4 heavy guns, so 6 points. So the ship should be 96.5 points better, pretty much right on the money in this case, but as well the ship does have the option to swap out it's bombardment cannon for torps whenever it wants/needs to, which I guess would be the bonus for being a restricted vessel (as well as a 6.5 point reduction).

As I'm not getting much feedback I've been obsessively mathhammering this out, trying to make sure I'm not doing anything unfair. Likely I'll compare tyrants (at 180 points), Carnages, and heros to KKs in a cruiser clash later to make sure it makes sense. The kill-kroozer could likely go as low as d6+4 on the prow, and d6+1 on the sides, but this wouldn't fix much for the non-torp version. Likely it would need a 5 point deduction at that point. However at that value it would be too comparable to a strike cruiser.

[Plaxor]

Game 1 batrep; Tyrants vs KK

The kill kroozers had ld across the spectrum 2 ld7 1ld6 1ld5, tyrants 2ld8 1ld7 1ld6. Orks went first and AAF first turn to get close, not within weapons range however.

The tyrants moved turned as much as possible and fired torps.

One KK (the furthest ahead) ran into the torps, and took 1 point of damage. Two others shot the torps in front of them with heavy guns and managed to kill them, the third was hit by the torps and took 1 point. They shot at the tyrants causing 1 point of damage overall.

The tyrants moved turned, and caused 3 hits on one of the previously damaged kill kroozers. The kill kroozers followed with a ship in a boarding action (causing 3 hits) and three others shooting at another ship, causing it to brace and 4 hits.

The tyrants continued to move then fire, killing the ship that already had hits, and severely damaging another. Orks followed by killing the 4 hit ship that was in heavy gun range, who failed a bfi.  Then the swirl started.

Anyways ultimately (when I decided to end the game) the orks had 3 ships with 5,3, and 4 hits remaining. The IN had 3 with 8, 3 and 6 hits remaining. According to vps awarded the IN won by 35 points. Ick. This set up of kill kroozers makes their initial strike somewhat absurd, but they still have previous underlying issues that prevent them from following up. This example seemed fine, but a more equivalent match (6 tyrants vs 7 kks) might have ended differently. Still the IN vessels should have won, as they had 100 extra points on their side, but still that is a slight disadvantage as there was more to give up.

Ork KKs+successful LO within range of heavy guns=death. 10wbs+6heavy guns means average 4 hits on cruiser (abeam), compared to the tyrants 2 in a similar scenario. Given it was easier to get internal damage on the KKs.

The KKs with their impressive forward batteries tempts the player to close and get close to the enemy, but unless they can cripple ships on their first or second shots, then they have to turn and fight with their side batteries (pretty much) which are still relatively weak, and have a hard time doing any reasonable damage. It really is a first-strike game with them. I don't see soopa engines being broken after this fight (for free), as this reduces side weaponry and increases this problem.

[Plaxor]

Possible upgrade proposed; replace p/s heavy guns on hammer with str 1 launch bays for 10 points. This would help with the ork ordinance weakness, and allow for a more viable list without a lot of terror ships.

Also possible fleet list change: To make the ork pirate list and the WAAAGH list different:

Forcing a waagh player to take either a space hulk or a battleship/battlecruiser. Forcing a pirate player to take a squadron of escorts for every cruiser.

So basically it would mean that at smaller points values the ork player would have to use pirates, larger they would be able to go all cruiser, but they would have to have a big ship.

Possible character: Kaptain Badrukk; haven't decided on rules for him, but likely any successful h&r attacks will give 1 ship +1 leadership the next turn.

[Plaxor]

So now I'm working on a lite krooza profile. After looking over the gouga's stats, as well as various conversions for lite kroozers I've come to this idea:

Smasha Lite Krooza  90 points
Type/Hits   Speed/Turns  Shields  Armor
Cruiser/6      25/45            1        6/4

Prow Gunz: D6+2@30cm
P/S Gunz: D6@30cm
P/S Heavy guns: 4
Prow Heavy guns: 4

May replace prow heavy guns for d6 torpedoes for 5 points
May replace p/s guns or heavy guns for soopa engines at no cost
May replace p/s heavy guns, and prow heavy guns with grabbas and drills for +10 points. These give the vessel +1 to it's boarding roll, as well as causing an automatic critical hit to any ship that comes into contact with its base (friend or foe!)

Possible inclusion of carrier version, replacing heavy guns with 1 launch bay at 10 points.
Possible increase in hits (and increase in firepower as well)
Possible decrease in speed