September 11, 2024, 06:14:33 AM

Author Topic: List of flawed ships  (Read 289214 times)

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1500 on: May 17, 2011, 05:07:19 AM »
RC, your edits are phenomenal. I'm on page 7 of your work and 4 hours in....

Sorry about the delay in updates guys, I was moving to a new flat this last week. Anyways, I would like to make a few decisions regarding the rules, and close fighters/squadrons by the weekend.

Horizon/Sigoroth/Admiral D,

If any of you happen to be around right now I would like your opinion on something RC put into his edits; namely allowing gunnery to shift left into the firepower column.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 05:10:57 AM by Plaxor »

Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1501 on: May 17, 2011, 05:19:43 AM »
Nein mann.



(No).

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1502 on: May 17, 2011, 05:21:52 AM »
K, thanks Horizon.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1503 on: May 17, 2011, 06:43:45 AM »
I myself am not against this idea. The biggest objection that I can see is that doing so actually uses values outside the table (ie, the label column). I don't have a problem with the concept of perfect gunnery accuracy. In fact, I think it would help to legitimise the assigned value. For example, why is the WB value of the Lunar 6? What does the 6 represent? Answer: the maximum potential impacts. Without the chance for the Lunar to roll 6 dice (and the Dom to roll 12 and the Tyrant to roll 10 and Carnage/Emp 16, etc) then the value is a pure abstraction. Pure abstraction is fine, but we have an abstraction which is so close to the actual numerical value that it becomes confusing.

For example, if instead of having firepower 1-20, what if it was firepower A-T? So the Lunar would have firepower F, the Dominator would be firepower L, etc. Then a further left column shift would take the Dominator from 11 dice to "L" dice, which is meaningless. Of course, letters can't be added or divided meaning that combining and splitting firepower would be impossible without simply assigning a numerical value to those letters. Similarly any other abstraction would be able to be so categorised back into a simple numerical expression (category 1 firepower, category 2, etc).

However, if the values returned by each category were not fractions of 1 then it wouldn't be possible to simply use the firepower column. For example, if firepower 6 gave 12 dice in the defences column then a further left shift would actually reduce firepower by 50%!

In essence, this sort of thing would not normally fly, but in this case we have a chance to define firepower in real terms, rather than pure abstraction, and it's aligned to be doable.

TL;DR - Yes.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 06:51:07 AM by Sigoroth »

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1504 on: May 17, 2011, 06:49:08 AM »
Well there are only two situations where the 'perfect fire' would occur. Against Defenses within 15cm (which is fine, as I intend to make fairly tough defenses)

The other situation is against closing vessels within 15cm during any game which is near the sun (flare region and mercurial zone IIRC)

So pretty rare.... I think the only issue is the column definition here.

Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1505 on: May 17, 2011, 06:52:17 AM »
Upon reflection I think it can be done. (I looked at the chart and the difference is neglible).

Gives a small boost to Eldar and other races with left shift (or upgrades with left shifts or which prevent right shifts or so).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 06:57:54 AM by horizon »

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1506 on: May 17, 2011, 06:54:34 AM »
Well there are only two situations where the 'perfect fire' would occur. Against Defenses within 15cm (which is fine, as I intend to make fairly tough defenses)

The other situation is against closing vessels within 15cm during any game which is near the sun (flare region and mercurial zone IIRC)

So pretty rare.... I think the only issue is the column definition here.

Well you would think that there's only 2 situations, but the one you forgot was modified ships. For example, an Overlord with the Targeting Matrix. This would allow it to get perfect fire against a defence, a closing cap ship at close range or a moving away cap ship at close range into the sun in any battlezone except outer reaches and deep space.

There are a few ships that can get this  sort of upgrade, there's refits and then potentially racial special rules.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1507 on: May 17, 2011, 06:58:25 AM »
Upon reflection I think it can be done. (I looked at the chart and the difference is neglible).

Gives a small boost to Eldar and other races with left shift (or upgrades which prevent right shifts or so).

Yeah, there is no difference for firepower 5 or less, it's +1 dice for firepower 6-15 and +2 dice for firepower 16-25.

Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1508 on: May 17, 2011, 07:00:24 AM »
Exactly.


Though Sig, that might make the targetting matrix on the Mars 15pts again. ;)

I need to see output on the options-increase for:

Retribution (AdMech) with AWR (str18wb!!)
Eldar Dragonships (str12wb with left shift)


-warning
yup.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1509 on: May 17, 2011, 07:08:57 AM »
Yep, that retribution would be murder. Pure concentrated murder.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1510 on: May 17, 2011, 07:25:49 AM »
Exactly.


Though Sig, that might make the targetting matrix on the Mars 15pts again. ;)

I need to see output on the options-increase for:

Retribution (AdMech) with AWR (str18wb!!)
Eldar Dragonships (str12wb with left shift)


-warning
yup.

Heh, well I think the TM on the Mars is still lame at 15 pts compared to the lances of the Dominion and the TM of the Overlord, which pays the same to upgrade 33% more firepower with 33% more range.

As for the Ret, well if you manage to break the enemy's line, and we'll assume they're running perpendicular to you so you get 1 ship closing and 1 shp moving away, then this change will give +2 dice against the closing ship (assuming close range and no interference from BMs etc). So instead of getting 16 dice at both ships it'll get 18 dice at the closing ship and 16 dice against the moving away ship. Unless, the moving away ship is sunward of the Ret and you're not in the outer reaches or deep space, in which case it will get 18 dice against each target. So very best possible scenario imaginable, the AM Ret gets +2 dice each side with this change.

The Dragonship will get +1 dice if it's firing at a closing ship at close range or a moving away ship at close range into the sun except when in OR or DS. This last scenario is quite unlikely, given they usually fire into the prow or side and prefer the OR or DS battlezones. In fact, given that Eldar don't like to be close due to potential for enemy ships to explode then it's not much of an advantage to them at all. When they do decide to get to close range then it just increases the chances the enemy will explode and maul them. So a bit of a trade-off inherent to the change.

Yep, that retribution would be murder. Pure concentrated murder.

Unlike the Murder, which is pure concentrated lame.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1511 on: May 17, 2011, 08:27:49 AM »
I don't mind being able to use the left most column.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1512 on: May 17, 2011, 08:33:49 AM »
Ok, looks like left-most column is on!

Also I see why Sig was complaining about the TM on the Mars. 33% less firepower should mean 33% cheaper.

The Murder is a bit of a misnomer, as it probably has the least Murder of any of the Chaos cruisers.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1513 on: May 17, 2011, 11:49:17 AM »
To be clear, in my edit I didn't just 'edit in' that the the firepower column can be used.

I pointed out that we needed to better define which column counted as the 'leftmost column', noted that I wouldn't mind it being the firepower column, but then proposed that the following wording be added to clarify the matter:

“No target aspect or modifier can adjust shooting beyond the Special or Ordnance columns on the gunnery table.”

But as it seems like we're going with a revised version, I'd use the following wording instead:

"Target aspects and modifiers may adjust shooting up to (but not beyond) the Firepower and Ordnance columns on the gunnery table."

Although while it's been mentioned, I don't think  the double shift for sunward edge should apply outside the flare and mercurial regions. Sure, if you look right at a star, even in the outer reaches it will dazzle, but the modifiers apply at an up to 45' ofset from the star. This only really makes sense if you're very close to it.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1514 on: May 17, 2011, 12:13:03 PM »
RC, I have no intention of changing the inlaid double RS/LS for being close to a star.

Most fleets prefer to be farther away from the sun, in DS or OR, even the Attack Rating selection rules promote battles farther from the sun. Most pickup games ignore this 1/3 of the time factor as well, simply setting up phenomena however.

I could've sworn that is what you were saying...