September 11, 2024, 06:15:51 AM

Author Topic: List of flawed ships  (Read 289218 times)

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1485 on: May 12, 2011, 02:03:09 AM »
Because I want to play Chaos.  I like the challenge.

Then why are you complaining about the Dev since it challenges you? BTW, playing Chaos is NOT a challenge.

Nobody has given me tips or strategy for pages and pages. I had't asked for any to begin with anyway. People just started accusing me of playing badly because I don't think Devestations are that great.  Nobody even asked how I have been using them, so nobody knows if I have been playing correctly or not!  Sigiroth said to close with them and go oblique at the last moment and I said that would work better than what I had been doing, so youre wrong about me not taking anyone's advice.

LoL! I've given advice.

The ongoing argument has been whether the Devestation is good, or even passable, at getting up close along with the rest of an aggressive Chaos fleet to give close AC support or counter torpedo shotguns.  The argument started with people saying the Devestation was the best aggressive carrier in the game because it had the same weapon loadout as a Lunar.  I disagreed on the basis of the Devestation's vulnerability.  Over time I've proved my point again and again.

And I've already told you what I do with my Devs in my all cruiser 1500 point list.


The topic is concluded.  I don't want to talk anout this anymore.


Yes, probably best this way.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1486 on: May 12, 2011, 05:04:51 AM »
We all have different opinions. The Dev conversation should be closed now, as I don't think anyone will be changing their minds.

The Hellbringer V1 works, however the question is how is it justified by fluff? Is it a stripped down cruiser? is it a CL?

V2 is certainly balanced as a light carrier, although I don't think anyone would be interested in taking such a ship.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1487 on: May 12, 2011, 07:21:48 AM »
@Phthisis

It must be admitted that the Dictator was purpose built to close. Prow armour, torpedoes and lack of range makes it a line support ship. This has its ups and downs.


The Dev, on the other hand, is more versatile. With the extra range and speed it can provide support from a safer distance, and at 190 pts it provides a better AC to cost ratio than the Dictator. When the enemy closes to 30cm it puts out as much firepower as a Lunar broadside (or both broadsides of the Dictator), while still maintaining a resilient aspect and providing AC to the fleet. For just 10 pts more than a Lunar, that's pretty good.

But the versatility comes in being able to use it as an attack carrier. When breaking the line it has 75% of the Lunar's direct fire capability plus 4 AC (minus torps). It also has better speed to get into position and an extra turret. All this for 10 pts more. Not too bad. What it really loses out on is the 6+ armour of course. The solution here would be to either approach obliquely (mitigating both the prow vulnerability and the speed bonus) or to provide a preponderance of targets with the soft prow. A fleet consisting of Slaughters, Hades, Devs and Executors, for example.

You could make the argument that neither of these options is as good as the 6+ prow and that despite the 50% greater direct firepower when used as a line breaker, this isn't as good as the torpedoes of the Dictator. You'd be right. The Dictator is a better carrier of the line. It costs more though, and is not as good a support carrier. It's slower, lacks range, pays for armour that wouldn't be used and has less firepower.

So when you compare the Dictator to the Dev and argue that the Dictator is superior you're right, when looking solely at the role of carrier of the line. I don't think that the Dictator is tremendously superior in this role, but it is easier to use. The Dev requires a little finesse or a themed fleet, and lacks the punch torps can provide. But, meh, it's cheaper.

You might have got such opposition because it seemed like you were making a flat statement that the Dictator is greater than the Dev full stop. If that was your intention, then we'd have an argument. For the role of carrier of the line, I'm willing to stipulate that the Dictator is superior and more purpose built.

The question I think is does Chaos need a carrier of the line equal to or better than the Dictator? My initial thought is no. Firstly Chaos isn't really an attacking line fleet. They're more like circling wolves. OK, yes, you can construct a closing Chaos fleet. Sure. But if that's what you want to do then the Dev is a fine ship. If we start trying to give Chaos a carrier of the line like a Dictator then why not other ships of the line? Why not a Lunar analogue? Or a Ret analogue?

Offline Phthisis

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1488 on: May 12, 2011, 03:59:27 PM »
@Plaxor

Does Hellbringer V2 have 2 total bays or only 1?

If it has 2, I'd take either of them for their points.  V1 could be a modified Murder, with bays replacing batteries and weakened lances and greater manouverability because the hull was stripped down. 

@Sig
Will answer when I have time.

Offline Phthisis

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1489 on: May 12, 2011, 09:03:55 PM »
There are advantages to firing ordnance close enough to their target that they reach it in the same player turn they are launched.  The biggest being that you can deal with CAP how you see fit, or avoid it all together, so you maximize your damage potential.  Another benefit is your opponent has no chance to counter it with gunnery or their own AC.  A bomber wave fired from 40cm away is much less likely to do damage than one launched 15cm away.
This shotgun tactic is something most carriers in the game do well.   IN and Ork carriers can close as safely as they can run abeam.  The Eldar carrier has good forward weaponry as well and is more resistant to fire to the prow. 
The Chaos fleet is the most vulnerable, especially when advancing.  So an aggressive carrier for the Chaos fleet has to make up for it with punching power to force enemies to brace.  The Despoiler was such a ship with 7 lances forward.  Once it's weaponry was moved to the side, it became a much better support carrier, Chaos's answer to the Emperor.  Its still a good ship, but not good for that role anymore. 
The Styx can fill that role somewhat, but it has nowhere near the strength or resilience the old Despoiler had.  It would work in multiples, but the cruiser requirements and cost are prohibitive.
The old use of the Devestation and what it has become is a topic I don't want to dredge up again, but suffice it to say it is the least capable of fulfilling this slot.
Traversing is a loosing strategy, especially with LO NCs on the loose now. 
With no capable attack carrier, the head-on fleet is at a disadvantage.  Since Chaos is supposed to be the AC fleet, I think a carrier that can provide close range support/ordnance for a head-on strategy  and contribute to its own defense is in order. 

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1490 on: May 12, 2011, 09:10:17 PM »
Hellbringer V2 has 2 launch bays

Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1491 on: May 12, 2011, 09:26:59 PM »
Hi,

Phtsis, read Sigoroth's post. Circling wolves, not advancing fleet (which is IN designed to do).

I do not understand why a Devestation with 60cm weapons is an attack carrier and not with 45cm. 60cm encourages even less attacking intentions then 45cm. I do not understand why you think it is a difference if it (or variant) had 45cm on the prow (LFR). As this way it exposes a 5+ prow instead of 5+ abeam.
Even I would not position the Styx prow on. I would always keep an abeam angle.

Even if closing. Keep that abeam side. Yes, this doesn't matter to lances etc but it does to batteries and planned torp routes.

Chaos boarding fleet ain't made of Devestations in the front line.

What is a Chaos head on fleet?

If you keep ordnance to shotgun ( a good and viable tactic) the other can do long range waves. Yes, vulnerable to direct fire but still a threat.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 09:51:46 PM by horizon »

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1492 on: May 12, 2011, 09:50:12 PM »
Congrats on this thread gaining 100 pages btw.

Offline Phthisis

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1493 on: May 12, 2011, 10:06:54 PM »
@Plaxor
I'd use either version happily.  V1 has a strike cruiser feel that I like.  V2 is a little more versatile.  
My preference is V1.

@Horizon
The Devestation was never an attack carrier.  What do you think we have been discussing over PM?  Not talking about this anymore.

At this point it seems like youre saying 'no' without taking time to remember what I'm saying.

A head-on fleet is one with lots of Murders and Hades.  I know you and Sig don't like it, but lots of people who play Chaos do.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1494 on: May 13, 2011, 02:56:46 AM »
I also think Styx is a good addition to the head-on chaos fleet.

Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1495 on: May 13, 2011, 03:57:11 AM »
A head-on fleet is one with lots of Murders and Hades.  I know you and Sig don't like it, but lots of people who play Chaos do.
Head on up to 45cm. Then the broadsides should be used.

I think better of MMH then Sig does.

Offline zaxqua

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1496 on: May 14, 2011, 08:14:07 PM »
And now for something comepletly different:
How come the space marine vanguard cruiser is 15points less than the strike cruiser but has better wepons? And while I'm on sm, the blood angels fleet list is one-dimensional and retarded. Yes, the sons of sanguinius love close combat and have the black rage, that does not mean they are not as good at fleet battles. In fact in the Blood Angels Omnibus the battle barge ALWAYS engaged enemy ships in gun duels, not boarding actions. Keep their leadership normal and give each capital ship a "Death Company Boarding Party." This can be used once per game to a)double the ships boarding value for one turn, b)go onboad a thunderhawk and give it +2 on the hit and run table, or c)used in a planetary assult senario by giving +2 assult points for the first turn spent within 30cm of the planet.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1497 on: May 15, 2011, 04:41:20 AM »
Zaxqua, that is the reason that the Master of the fleet's ship retains it's normal leadership. Even with the negative modifier to leadership they still are better off than IN/Chaos.

The Vanguard has 1 less sheild than the SC, which is a solid reason for the 15 point decrease.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1498 on: May 15, 2011, 06:35:51 AM »
A shield costs 15 points? o.O

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1499 on: May 15, 2011, 07:39:40 AM »
Well that and some different weaponry. As well as the Vanguard being a CL so it can squadron with escorts (not a huge buff)