List of flawed ships

[Phthisis]

And the Defiants bring 14 lances FLR, 6 more than the Devestations can bring to bear and still more ordnance even including the infidels.

We could do this all day.  Im sorry that the Devestation gives you nightmares, but thats not a justification to give the IN an advantage in AC as well as torpedos, armor, manouverability and long range weaponry.  And the Devestation isn't nearly as good of a ship as you make it out to be. Admiral says a cross fleet comparison isn't fair? Can't compare the Styx to the Mars?  Stop comparing the Dev to the Lunar then.  

[horizon]

And the Devestations have the first shot. And you'll bet at least one Defiant goes down from 8 lances.

7 Defiants = 14 AC + 7 torps = 21 markers.
4 Devestations + 2 Infidels = 16 AC + 4 torps = 20 markers

The Devestations start firing at 45cm with lances. 1 shielded vessels are easy to surpress.
Defiants need to be in base2base to make torps count. This is more fun when one explodes.
In base2base is less markers.

Yes, we could go on all day.

The IN is not an AC fleet. And has no AC advantage as far as I can see.

The Devestation is an awesome ship.

I think we are back at the point where I say: I give up in trying...

[Phthisis]

The Defiants move from outside the Devs range and hit with their lances. 55cm. The Devs move abeam and only fire 45cm.  First shot to the Defiants.  14 lances are going to mess up a Devestation, not to mention 14 torpedos and possibly bombers.

Im fine with you giving up.  Youre not correct anyway.  Every scenario we have posed the Devestations come up short.
Do we live nearby? Lets play a game.

[zaxqua]

Of course the devestations come up short. The ship was not designed to take on equal point value carriers in a duel, it was designed to provide the chaos fleets with ordanance. And, on top of that, it is completely illegal to field a fleet of 7 defiants! (unless admech, which has more expensive ships) You can't look at the ships on a one-to-one basis, you have to look at how the ship works in a regular, balanced fleet.

[RCgothic]

Some of the restrictions on ships have been relaxed a bit.

But the torp salvoes off defiants are so weak you may as well ignore them for ordnance purposes. If fired in a combined salvo they give up the numerical advantage.

[Phthisis]

@zaxqua
Thank you for someone finally understanding me!

@RC
Fighters can remove CAP for torpedos.  Torpedos can clear CAP for bombers.

[horizon]

The Defiants move from outside the Devs range and hit with their lances. 55cm. The Devs move abeam and only fire 45cm.  First shot to the Defiants.  14 lances are going to mess up a Devestation, not to mention 14 torpedos and possibly bombers.

Im fine with you giving up.  Youre not correct anyway.  Every scenario we have posed the Devestations come up short.
Do we live nearby? Lets play a game.

Netherlands

Why do your Defiants move in first? Perhaps the Devestations move in first. If Chaos plays it well the Defiants won't get a full shot ever in the game.
By the way, why 55cm? Defiants move 20/shoot 30.

You still have to have the Defiants in b2b to make their torps count.
And if you used them as cap removal then you will only be 1 marker in the lead.

1str2 torp marker or 1 bomber marker.


Imo 1 Devestation would/could lose vs a Dictator.
Why? Because it is 20pts cheaper.

When levelled. It is equal. Tactics make the differnence.

Never said anything else here.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

And the Defiants bring 14 lances FLR, 6 more than the Devestations can bring to bear and still more ordnance even including the infidels.

We could do this all day.  Im sorry that the Devestation gives you nightmares, but thats not a justification to give the IN an advantage in AC as well as torpedos, armor, manouverability and long range weaponry.  And the Devestation isn't nearly as good of a ship as you make it out to be. Admiral says a cross fleet comparison isn't fair? Can't compare the Styx to the Mars?  Stop comparing the Dev to the Lunar then.  

Get rid of the Defiant. Problem solved. Yes, don't compare. And the Dev is as good a ship as it is to be. Switch fleets with Tag. Maybe he can show you how good it is.

Yes Styx is a more of a pure attack carrier ship which has to be more closer to the front line, different from the Mars which is mainly a support ship suited to stay back and shoot NC while launching fighters to support the IN. But by compare I am saying you can't compare the exact pointages by comparing across factions. Chaos should really have access to cheaper AC while having more expensive torps, the reverse of IN. Smotherman and RC Gothic's formulas also do not take these into account but something which could be incorporated to improve the math.

Dev is different from a Lunar as a carrot is to a zucchini, both vegetables but offering something different. Both Lunar and Dev are same type but provides different game play. Though I really can't figure how a Lunar came into the discussion.

[RCgothic]

The Lunar came in because a Dev can match its broadside firepower whilst providing AC on top.

With the exception of the RSVs, we're not getting rid of any ships.

End of.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Can provide similar broadside only on one fire arc, to be precise. However still shouldn't be compared.

As for the Defiant, just reminding you that the option is there.

[Phthisis]

This whole issue started because I said that the Devestation is a purely defensive carrier while the other races all have strong attack carriers.  I said that with the changes made to the Despoiler and Devestation, and with the across-the-board 10pt decrease to every IN carrier  there is now an imbalance in AC and a significant hole in the fleet that an attack carrier could fill.

Well, the way some around here talk, a pair of devestations in a fleet is practically an auto-win.  So they have been trying to convince me that a Devestation is as good at, if not better than, getting up close and slugging it out as any other carrier in the game.  Which is complete BS.  But they think prow armor and torpedos are extremely overrated, and so want to compare the Devestation to the Lunar.  They have been arguing that the Devestation is a Lunar with 4 bays for only 10pts more.

Of course, if the IN player decides that the thing to do is shoot torpedos from long distance and turn broadsides as the Chaos fleet approaches, then theyre right.  This seems to be the way everyone who has jousted with me on this topic has described their strategy.  Here we do things differently and much better. Both IN players stay prow on in order to maximize their use of torpedos (they bypass shields, guns don't).  Usually using an AAF shotgun tactic that targets one or two ships with the majority of the IN fleet, including Dictators to clear CAP.  Its effective and leverages their prow armor and torpedos, which turning would otherwise completely negate.  If Devestations are in range, they are the target.

There are benefits to a carrier that can stay inside AC range without getting killed.  Unfortunately, the Devestation is the worst at doing that in the entire game.  How this translates.into a super powerful uber carrier escapes me.  And yet people still complain that its too inexpensive.  And call me names.  And suggest that Tag will be able to somehow make them into brilliant attack carriers.  Tag is smart, but he's not a magician.  So far his idea has been not to squadron them so that they aren't both neutralized by BFI while one is getting killed.

It seems to me that people think Devs are awesome because theyre playing against Chaos wrong.  And because theyre playing against Chaos wrong with the IN, they think its overpowered and so want a nerf and points deductions to the IN fleet.  Which is why I want to play IN against Horizon.  I keep describing the same scenario and its not connecting.  I keep hearing 'Arent they launching torpedos from long range?' And 'But when they turn brosdsides to face your incoming chaos ships'..... 

[horizon]

Did I call names? Nah.

I gave you answers to the IN tactics. You don't agree with them. Pity the distance is too far.

[Phthisis]

No, you didn't.  It wasn't you I was referring to.

It is a pity.  I'd only like to show you what I am describing and get your opinion.  I've got no hard feelings.  I still value your opinion.  If I didn't I wouldn't keep on with you about this for a week.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Everyone's been giving you tip and tactics already but you don't want to take them. We're not saying the Devs (or 2) are an auto win but a Dev is definitely very good for its points. There's a difference. You keep thinking we're saying the Dev is an uber ship which should be able to survive being in close combat. It can but the chances are doubtful.

Any ship, no matter how good it is for its point can be destroyed or lost, especially if the player is playing them wrong. Carriers have no business being up close, even the Dictator because the chances are it will have to brace and so lose out on half of its weapons.

Since you seem to favor the Dictator more, why not do the simple thing?  Play the IN faction solely from now on instead. That's not an insult, rather it's a suggestion to play what you believe strongly in rather than continue to insist on playing something and yet not believe in their capabilities. If you don't believe in your ships, you won't be able to maximize their capabilities and will continue wondering why 2 Devs in formation with a Desolator got blown out of space real quick.

[Phthisis]

Because I want to play Chaos.  I like the challenge.

Nobody has given me tips or strategy for pages and pages. I had't asked for any to begin with anyway. People just started accusing me of playing badly because I don't think Devestations are that great.  Nobody even asked how I have been using them, so nobody knows if I have been playing correctly or not!  Sigiroth said to close with them and go oblique at the last moment and I said that would work better than what I had been doing, so youre wrong about me not taking anyone's advice.

The ongoing argument has been whether the Devestation is good, or even passable, at getting up close along with the rest of an aggressive Chaos fleet to give close AC support or counter torpedo shotguns.  The argument started with people saying the Devestation was the best aggressive carrier in the game because it had the same weapon loadout as a Lunar.  I disagreed on the basis of the Devestation's vulnerability.  Over time I've proved my point again and again.

I've never asked for advice on how to use my Devestations. I never said how I have been using them.  Ive never requested a points change for the Dev or even the return of its 60cm range.  I just said the Dev wasn't as awesome as its made out to be and too vulnerable to use up close and I have been under attack ever since.  People have just assumed that since I don't think its great I am a bad player and need advice.  I don't. The Devestation can't be used up close.  I'm right.  

If anything, this thread of argument has exposed to me that the flawed reasoning behind many of the changes made to points values in the fleet list may be due to an ineffective tactical dogma that is prevalent amongst IN players.  But I'm a heretic for not getting wet over the Devestation.  I'm always the heretic, so I'm used to it.  Boys in my class used to call me a 'fag' for not liking New Kids on the Block.  Death Guard players said the Plaguespear wouldn't work. My physics teacher and other students thought I didn't get it because I believed Black Hole theory was based on bad math.   I see things differently.  I wave my heritic flag proudly.

The topic is concluded.  I don't want to talk anout this anymore.